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three minutes song and other rules of thumb

#51 User is offline   zmulls Icon

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 07:59 PM

I get no kick from champagne
Mere alcohol
Doesn't thrill me at all
So tell me why should it be true
That I get a kick out of you

Some get a kick from cocaine
I'm sure that if
I took even one sniff
It would bore me terrif-
ically too
But I get a kick out of you

I get a kick every time I see you standing there before me
I get a kick though it's clear to me you obviously don't adore me

Some get a kick in a plane
Flying too high
With some guy
In the sky
Is my i-
dea of nothing to do
But I get a kick out of you



It's a "classic" structure in that it mimics the AABA style of the 30s and 40s. The musical theatre and big band styles of songs were probably what McCartney listened to in his parents' house growing up. A lot of great songwriters (like Elvis Costello) internalized these sorts of structures before reinventing forms for their own styles.

This Cole Porter song has a very similar structure as "Yesterday", with the refrain at the end of every verse. It may not be that there were many top 40 songs in the 1960s that used it, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a well-known and familiar pattern to many peoples' ears. You can trace lines from the "great American songbook" from Tin Pan Alley up to classic rock, with adjustments for form along the way.
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#52 User is offline   R-N-R Jim Icon

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 08:28 PM

Hi Zmulls

Just as I may have thought about it being before my time. Granted I've watched old movies that have some musical numbers in them, but I never thought about the structure in which they are written in. I remember Paul mentioning about whether he thought he copied something from what he may if heard during his his childhood. Again, I just dont remember a song ever sounding like that structure wise in the top 40 during the mid 60s to now. And the number of chord changes in it is kind of unheard of these days for a pop song, wouldn't you agree? Of course unless your going pop-jazz standard would that even come into play.

to Alistair

About meter and phrasing in country...I think it depends on the tempo. Phrasing is so important in country music. You can't get away with mumbling or not having every word being understood. That's why words are that much more important in country music because it is half of the song. It's almost like a crossword puzzle, but its the phonetics that come more into play than anything else. Most country relies on a hook or cliche', that's just the nature of the beast. A haunting song that got some airplay by Alison Krause and Union Station was 'New Favorite" I think it was called. I have it downloaded somewhere. Play that one and tell me if country hasn't changed or doesnt take any chances.
There are actually indie country artists that are making inroads in the market as well, much like the indie pop alternative bands did in the 80s on the college radio stations. They are the new wave of country that is going to change the landscape of country again eventually.

just my two cents worth
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#53 User is offline   Bruce N Icon

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 10:16 PM

Is't Google search just fantastic !

Some songs in the AABA form:

"Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow?" - Carole King, Gerry Goffin

"Just the Way You Are" - Billy Joel

"Save the Last Dance for Me" - Doc Pomus, Mort Shuman

"Blue Moon" - Richard Rodgers, Lorenz Hart

"Something" - George Harrison


"Beginning in the 1960s, some songwriters began using an extended version of the AABA form, called the AABABA. This is merely the AABA form with an additional bridge and a final verse. This final verse may be a repeat of a previous verse or even just a part of one of the previous verses.


John Lennon and Paul McCartney's song "Yesterday" uses an extended AABA form. The title appears as the first line in each verse except for Verse 2, where the word suddenly is used instead. The title also appears in the last line of each verse, and in the last line of the bridge, and the final verse is just a repeat of Verse 3."

This AABABA form is also used in other Beatles songs (written by John Lennon and Paul McCartney), including the following:

  • "I'll Follow the Sun"
  • "I Want to Hold Your Hand"
  • "Hey Jude"
  • "Hard Day's Night"
  • "Long and Winding Road"
  • "I Call Your Name"

"Things get a little more complicated in a few of McCartney's songs. "Michelle," for example, has a form of AABABABA. The fourth verse is not sung but is instead played as an instrumental. The words in the second verse are repeated in the third and fifth verses, so all these verses are the same. All three bridges have different words."


In the AABA form, the A sections are the verse sections, and the B section is a bridge. In other forms, B represents whatever section comes second in the song. The title is usually placed either in the first or the last line of each verse and is in the same place each time it comes around.

The bridge is a section that provides a contrast to the verse sections by using different chords, a different melody, and sometimes a shift in the focus in the lyrics. It provides an interlude between verses, which can be very effective if it's done well.

In the classic AABA song, the A sections are usually 8 bars in length and constitute the main melody of the song. Each of the three A sections has a different set of words, although the last verse section can be a repeat of the first, as is the case in the song "Monday, Monday" performed by The Mamas and The Papas (written by John Phillips). In fact, all three verses can be the same, as in John Lennon and Paul McCartney's "Do You Want to Know a Secret?" But these are exceptions to the rule and you won't find many songs that repeat verses like that. Songwriters usually compose three separate sets of lyrics for the verse sections of the AABA form.

The AABA form continues to be used today in many styles of music country, gospel, Christian, pop, jazz, theatre, and film but not as often as it once was. The form can be used to provide a very effective emotional satisfaction: The first two verses establish the main melody of the song, and then when the bridge is sung, it provides a different feeling because of its contrasting quality. Thus, the return to the last verse provides an emotionally satisfying return to what was presented before.

"There are always exceptions to every rule that's what makes life (and songs) interesting. Some AABA songs don't introduce the title in the first or last line of each verse. "The Christmas Song" (written by Mel Torme and Robert Wells) is an example of this. Everyone knows this song ("Chestnuts roasting on an open fire. . . ."), but the title, "The Christmas Song," does not appear in the lyrics at all (because the title describes what the song is about and it's not a phrase that would sound good in the song itself.)

Another example of a different placement for the title is George Gershwin and Ira Gershwin's famous song "I Got Rhythm." The title appears at the beginning of the first verse, and then gets transformed in the next two verses. In the second verse it becomes "I got daisies," and in the third verse, it's "I got starlight." This is a great trick, the same one used by songwriter Jimmy Webb in "By the Time I Get to Phoenix." Take note of it you may want to do the same thing in a song of your own someday.

A real classic, "Over the Rainbow," was sung by Judy Garland in the film The Wizard of Oz. This is a great example of an AABA song with an added section at the end called a coda. The verses have a flowing feeling to them with the expansive quality of the words ("Somewhere over the rainbow, bluebirds fly"). This is perfectly contrasted by the quick movement of words in the bridge ("Where troubles melt like lemon drops away above the chimney tops"). The bridge provides a perfect interlude between the second and third verses."

Or you can just go ahead and use what you think fits and feels natural and right, blazing your own trail.

Class dismissed. Posted Image
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#54 User is offline   zmulls Icon

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 11:11 PM

"Just The Way You Are" is a perfect modern example. But Billy Joel was always a classic-styled songwriter.

The AABA form has faded out as the chorus has become more important. The classic AABA has no chorus -- only a refrain of some sort. It can occur at the end of the "A" verse, or at the beginning (Blue Moon) or not until the end of the song.

Actually, in older songwriting the entire AABA section *was* the chorus. There was often a long amusing verse, leading into the real melody, the chorus. It could be sung in under a minute, so that there could be a dance interlude (big band) and a repeat of the whole AABA chorus.

Elvis Costello sings "My Funny Valentine" on one of his early albums -- he was very open about his debut to classic songwriting.
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#55 User is offline   TimC Icon

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 12:51 AM

View PostR-N-R Jim, on 26 February 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

View PostLazz, on 26 February 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

R-N-R Jim said:

Honestly Alistair, I cant think of one song off hand that was patterned like this structure wise much less made it in the top 40 back in the day.

Crikey, matey!!
And stone the crows.
The standard 32-bar AABA form is one of songwriting's basic food-groups.


Well shiver me timbers...its the Lazzinator. If you say its common, than it must be so :)

Well, the 32 bar AABA form only dates back to the 1920s--but it includes every standard tune by Gershwin, Ellington, Porter, etc., as well as most of the Beatles hits ("Can't Buy Me Love" varies from the form because the A section is 12 bars instead of 8, but until "Revolver" John and Paul were very conventional songwriters with regard to form--they were quite unconventional in their chord progressions, though). "Yesterday" is absolutely conventional in form.

#56 User is offline   Alistair S Icon

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 01:54 AM

One example of the basic form..

A
Tonight you're mine completely
You give you love so sweetly
Tonight the light of love is in your eyes
But will you love me tomorrow?

A
Is this a lasting treasure
Or just a moment's pleasure?
Can I believe the magic of your sighs?
Will you still love me tomorrow?

B
Tonight with words unspoken
You say that I'm the only one
But will my heart be broken
When the night meets the morning sun?

A
I'd like to know that your love
Is love I can be sure of
So tell me now, and I won't ask again
Will you still love me tomorrow?


Edit: I see Bruce beat me to it on this one :(
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#57 User is offline   Bruce N Icon

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 04:07 AM

Quote

Edit: I see Bruce beat me to it on this one Posted Image


It's good you posted the lyrics for study, it should be noted that the song runs for 2:42.

Add on the extra BA to the AABA form and then you got a song that's probably going to run about 3:30

Still quite acceptable for radio play, which is about as good as a segue to ride back on to the original question .
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#58 User is offline   MABBO Icon

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 10:23 AM

Good lord,

You guys really like to attack each other don't you? Oh, well. Hate Nashville and country if you want, hate me and Roger or anyone who mentions the Nashville perspective. That is fine. I can't do anything about that. I will only respond to someone who asks a question that I know a little bit about. Take it for what you want or reject it. I have no dog in this hunt.

The questions on characteristics of most country songs. There are three of them:

#1. Realty based. They are mostly about real situations, real people and with details that will make most people look at something and say "I never looked at it that way before."

#2. Conversational in tone. They are written as a conversation and more clear spoken language than metaphors or poetic language. The Metaphors are usually grounded in reality. "Sky Diving, Rocky Mountain Climbing, Two point seven seconds on a Bull Named Fu Manchu." Which is in a song called "Live Like you are Duing." Using a clich' in a different way than usual.

#3. Defining melodic hook that repeats around every 30-45 seconds. Easily hummable and usually memorable by the end of the song. Same as most pop music has always tried to be.

Those are the primary characteristics.

MAB

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 10:52 AM

I just got word...all songs now need to be written under 2:30

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#60 User is offline   Joan Icon

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 11:32 AM

Whenever I check out country radio, I'm driving. I'm alone in the car so it's the only sound I'm taking in. I'm not multitasking, and if I ever do while driving, I should be pulled over and cited. My car is a listening room, and during that time I'm as receptive as if perched on a metal folding chair in some drafty church basement. Taking in that song is pretty much all I have to do besides keeping my car in its lane. This is ironic, because what I'm hearing is one song after another that was seemingly designed to ram its chorus into my beer-addled brain in some bar over a sea of loud simultaneous conversations. This is bad enough, but when I do go to patronize my friendly local tavern, guess what's on tap? An earnest, soulful singer songwriter. When he isn't covering oldies, he's doing originals that are as long and unstructured as he wants them to be, of which I can't follow the lyric or the story because of all the competing noise. Am I the only one who sees something out of whack here?

Sometimes I think radio songs aren't designed to grab and hold the audience's attention (during drive time we're captive if we have a favorite genre and there's only one station serving it up) as much as to grab and hold the publisher's attention. Maybe it's the publisher going through the stack who needs to be grabbed in the first few seconds, and maybe it's ultimately the listener who suffers.

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 11:45 AM

Hating Nashville?

I enjoy to listening to Country music sometimes. Generally not what is probably considered most popular right now but occasionally I hear something playing in a store and say "wow" that's really good and well written. It's not all crap and I GET the genre and why it is so popular. It's not about hating it, It's not about not understanding the business motivations behind it. Recording companies are not in the business of disseminating "great" music. They're in the business of making money by way of entertaining their largest consumers. All well and good. Great. That's what businesses do and should do. What they can't do is stand on the street corner and pitch the line "We're delivering the best talent and most innovative music out there" without the coda which admits "That fits in our very precise mold" - It's disingenuous, but you know what? I don't hear them even trying to make that pitch. But I am getting a sense it's trying to be pitched here.

If you can agree that Country music and promotional agencies are disproportionally signing those whom the industry believes are more saleable rather than signing those with exceptional talent, then you and I are not in any disagreement at all.

i.e., why are there so few less-than-attractive women getting big recording deals in the Country Music Industry these days? Why are the vast majority of them young and exceedingly attractive. Are there no unattractive women out with comparable or exceeding talent?

That's my basic point, really.
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#62 User is offline   porcupine Icon

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 12:41 PM

View PostJoan, on 27 February 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

Whenever I check out country radio, I'm driving. I'm alone in the car so it's the only sound I'm taking in. My car is a listening room, and during that time I'm as receptive as if I were perched on a metal folding chair listening to some coffee house folkie. Taking in the song is literally all I have to do besides keeping my car in its lane. This is ironic, because what I'm hearing is one song after another that was seemingly designed to wash over my beer-addled brain and force-teach me its chorus in some beer joint over a sea of loud simultaneous conversations. This is bad enough, but when I do go to patronize my own lil tavern, guess what's on tap? An earnest, soulful singer songwriter. When he isn't covering oldies, he's doing originals that are as long and unstructured as he wants them to be, of which I can't follow the lyric or the story because of all the competing noise. Am I the only one who sees something out of whack here?

Sometimes I think radio songs aren't designed to grab and hold the audience's attention (during drive time we're captive if we have a favorite genre and there's only one station serving it up) as much as to grab and hold the publisher's attention. Maybe it's the publisher going through the stack who needs to be grabbed in the first few seconds, and maybe it's ultimately the listener who suffers.


Well, kind of. I know clubs where the tv and pool table compete with the band/musicians for attention, but I know of very many "listening rooms" in Phila/NY that are AMAZING places to hear music and really LISTEN, no distractions. but everywhere you go, you have musicians who step up who aren't interesting. I think that happens everywhere, NY, Nashville, L.A. and every listtle town inbetween.

I think because most people's attention spans are limited, you're right, in a car, theres not much to distract you except for the giant truck in front of you. You can see it at a club, when a person goes on at an open mic. It gets really quiet, then within 30 seconds after they start, unless they did something interesting, people are looking at their phones, go outside for a smoke or discussing the weather. It happens, our job is to do/say something to keep them there and interested.

I think you have to be smart or understanding in choosing a club or venue to "listen" to music. You can do the same in your car (stations/cd...whatever)

I think, to write a song in ANY genre it takes dedication and understanding of the song mechanics in each. we only know what we know. There is most likely little or no people here who can write a great rap/r&b song, although thats where the most money in the music industry lies. When was the last time you wrote a rap song? Bet it's difficult to write a great one! It IS hard to write a country song well. Its tough to write any song well. But, we know what we know...

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#63 User is offline   Joan Icon

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 12:59 PM

Charlie, I do have a favorite listening room. I have to travel 20 miles to get to it, and when I go there it's to play as well as to listen. Of course there are intimate concert venues in the DC metro area as well, for small touring acts. When I speak of my favorite local tavern, I'm talking about the neighborhood watering hole that carries live music. It's half a mile from my home, and I see friends and neighbors when I go there. Drive time is, for most people, their primary radio-listening time. That's my point, that the concert-level attention drivers bring to that experience is wasted on music that was designed to be drunk, talked and laughed over, taking in its broad strokes without actively listening.

MABBO, I doubt anyone here hates you or Roger; you seem like good people with something to offer here. People hate country, maybe, but it's too vast and varied for anyone to hate all of it. We don't know you, we don't even know your name, except for anyone who followed the breadcrumbs and looked you up. If I knew you personally I expect we'd get on just fine. It must be frustrating, to mentor hopeful newcomers in Nashville, and then hang out at this site where your expertise is not regarded as highly. No doubt you realize that types of songwriting fall onto different places on the art/commerce spectrum. Not to discount overlap, but there are parallels between that and the difference between a studio artist and a graphic artist, or between a blues singer and a wedding singer. When you show up as a de facto representative of the commerce side, you seem more of a bogey man than you probably are, and that's not fair. You and I probably have some of the same favorite country songwriters, plus you might know some of them personally. But from some of what you've posted on the Muse, it's hard not to pigeonhole you as an apologist for an industry I don't admire. If I bear any hostility toward country as a genre -- and I do (ambivalence is a funny thing) -- it's because such a visible and influential part of it carries the weight of all that faith/family/freedom baggage. That stripe of country might as well be marketed as the patriotic arm of the Contemporary Christian genre. It can be done of course, but I'd have a hard time finding my place within an industry that rewards so much knee-jerk nationalism, overt religiosity and morally instructive schmaltz.

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 01:19 PM

:ph34r:

View PostJoan, on 27 February 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

Charlie, I do have a favorite listening room. I have to travel 20 miles to get to it, and when I go there it's to play as well as to listen. Of course there are intimate concert venues in the DC metro area as well, for small touring acts. When I speak of my favorite local tavern, I'm talking about the neighborhood watering hole that carries live music. It's half a mile from my home, and I see friends and neighbors when I go there. Drive time is, for most people, their primary radio-listening time. That's my point, that the concert-level attention drivers bring to that experience is wasted on music that was designed to be drunk, talked and laughed over, taking in its broad strokes without actively listening.



I understand. Thats why I commit to not going to certain venues. I love venues like World Cafe in Phila or Bitter End, but they all have that chance of a bad performance. I think the risk is less there though..

There are plenty of great radio stations (CMJ lists a ton) and now with sirus and internet, its almost limitless. We have the choice to listen to what we want.

The key indicator is, if you have to move a pool table to set up, you may not want to play or listen there.

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 01:30 PM

Charlie, fun fact: Satellite radio has every genre in the world except folk, which is the one I'd keep tuned to if they did have it. Not that they've never tried it, but the support just wasn't there to keep it going. So they've got everything except the one I love. So it goes, except on our NPR affiliate for a couple of hours on Saturday nights. Not my drive time. :(

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 02:20 PM

View PostJoan, on 27 February 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

Charlie, fun fact: Satellite radio has every genre in the world except folk, which is the one I'd keep tuned to if they did have it. Not that they've never tried it, but the support just wasn't there to keep it going. So they've got everything except the one I love. So it goes, except on our NPR affiliate for a couple of hours on Saturday nights. Not my drive time. :(



here's a channel i used to listen to

http://www.siriusxm.com/thevillage
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#67 User is offline   Joan Icon

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 02:39 PM

View Postporcupine, on 27 February 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

here's a channel i used to listen to

http://www.siriusxm.com/thevillage


Yup, I remember it fondly. I'd be feeling pretty burned these days if I'd bought satellite radio with my last car, basing it on being able to listen to The Village. I don't fault them for discontinuing it, commerce is a numbers game. I'm just sorry it's not more people's kind of music.

#68 User is offline   porcupine Icon

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 02:47 PM

View PostJoan, on 27 February 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

View Postporcupine, on 27 February 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

here's a channel i used to listen to

http://www.siriusxm.com/thevillage


Yup, I remember it fondly. I'd be feeling pretty burned these days if I'd bought satellite radio with my last car, basing it on being able to listen to The Village. I don't fault them for discontinuing it, commerce is a numbers game. I'm just sorry it's not more people's kind of music.


All I listen to is the 3:00 minute song channel now.

Porcupine
#1 song on Onstage.com's Holiday Playlist in Nov 2011 "Could This Be Christmas"
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#69 User is offline   jonie Icon

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 04:58 PM

View Postporcupine, on 27 February 2012 - 02:47 PM, said:

All I listen to is the 3:00 minute song channel now.

Porcupine



Good boy.

Can't have anyone climbing the fences. Less is more. Remember that.
We have now sunk to a depth at which re-statement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men.
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#70 User is offline   Alistair S Icon

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 05:05 PM

It has to be a pretty amazing song that can be much shorter than 2:30 or much longer than 4:30 and, respectively, avoid leaving me dissatisfied or wanting it to end.

I also think that the constraint isn't an issue. Constraints breed creativity.
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Posted 27 February 2012 - 05:11 PM

View PostJoan, on 27 February 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

If I bear any hostility toward country as a genre -- and I do (ambivalence is a funny thing) -- it's because such a visible and influential part of it carries the weight of all that faith/family/freedom baggage. That stripe of country might as well be marketed as the patriotic arm of the Contemporary Christian genre. It can be done of course, but I'd have a hard time finding my place within an industry that rewards so much knee-jerk nationalism, overt religiosity and morally instructive schmaltz.


There is that, fer sure. Not entirely convinced the industry can be held to a great deal of blame for rewarding the attitudes of its least common denominating and dominating customer. - that remains a bigger problem for America. Themes or hooks which include the words God, Jesus, USA or freedom are sure-fire money makers. It's money driven. I would hope for but would not expect anything else. But I agree, Joan, I could not rest my head on my pillow at night if I ever found myself in bed with the creature. Fortunately, RNR Jim has assured me that is never going to happen. :lol:

*sigh of relief.
We have now sunk to a depth at which re-statement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men.
George Orwell

The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion.
Arthur C. Clarke

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#72 User is offline   R-N-R Jim Icon

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 05:37 PM

View PostMABBO, on 27 February 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

Good lord,

You guys really like to attack each other don't you? Its hard not to sometimes, much like an old married couple..lol Oh, well. Hate Nashville and country if you want I think most of us have a favorite country artist or song, but country is not the predominate population here., hate me and Roger I think its more envy than anything, like most here are thinking "what are these big fish doing in our small pond?" or anyone who mentions the Nashville perspective. Unless your writing country music will that resonate here.That is fine. I can't do anything about that. I will only respond to someone who asks a question that I know a little bit about. Take it for what you want or reject it. I have no dog in this hunt. Or maybe you do.

The questions on characteristics of most country songs. There are three of them:

#1. Realty based. They are mostly about real situations, real people and with details that will make most people look at something and say "I never looked at it that way before."That works in any genre of music.

#2. Conversational in tone. They are written as a conversation and more clear spoken language than metaphors or poetic language. The Metaphors are usually grounded in reality. "Sky Diving, Rocky Mountain Climbing, Two point seven seconds on a Bull Named Fu Manchu." Which is in a song called "Live Like you are Duing." Using a clich' in a different way than usual.Now this is very true of country music.

#3. Defining melodic hook that repeats around every 30-45 seconds. Easily hummable and usually memorable by the end of the song. Same as most pop music has always tried to be. I couldn't imagine writing a song with a stop watch and think,"darn, I have to either shorten the intro or quicken the tempo to get to that chorus starting line time." I don't think that many people are that disciplined to write like that or would I myself even attempt it.
You see, here at the Muse, we have a lyric forum where we are more so just trying to write a complete thought
to a song idea and get that right first. The song forum is where the advanced writers are and are honing their skills on the marriage between the song and lyric and all the aesthetics that make up a song. A handful are actually good, but many are at the drawing board or novice stage like myself.
This site may boast over 9000 members, but roughly a hundred or so participate on a monthly basis(I did a head count one night two years ago). Anyways, feel free to give advice here if you want...free is always good compared to 75.00 to 150.00 a ticket at a seminar from some songwriter you never heard of that makes more money at his gig as a seminar presenter then his dwindling royalty checks. I myself have plenty of questions, but more so on the pitching level than the writing level. Perhaps you and Roger can have your own thread here at the Muse called "ASK A PRO".
You guys could share your own stories of the triumphs as well as pitfalls and rejection slips you guys endured throughout your songwriting careers. Now, that type of insight is always interesting to read.

Just my two cents worth
R-N-R Jim

Those are the primary characteristics.

MAB

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#73 User is offline   R-N-R Jim Icon

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 05:48 PM

View Postjonie, on 27 February 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

View PostJoan, on 27 February 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

If I bear any hostility toward country as a genre -- and I do (ambivalence is a funny thing) -- it's because such a visible and influential part of it carries the weight of all that faith/family/freedom baggage. That stripe of country might as well be marketed as the patriotic arm of the Contemporary Christian genre. It can be done of course, but I'd have a hard time finding my place within an industry that rewards so much knee-jerk nationalism, overt religiosity and morally instructive schmaltz.


There is that, fer sure. Not entirely convinced the industry can be held to a great deal of blame for rewarding the attitudes of its least common denominating and dominating customer. - that remains a bigger problem for America. Themes or hooks which include the words God, Jesus, USA or freedom are sure-fire money makers. It's money driven. I would hope for but would not expect anything else. But I agree, Joan, I could not rest my head on my pillow at night if I ever found myself in bed with the creature. Fortunately, RNR Jim has assured me that is never going to happen. :lol:

*sigh of relief.

Hi Joni

Dont egg me on, there might be another "Trailer Trash County" song out there rattling around in my little fragile mind begging to come out...lol

regards
R-N-R Jim
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https://soundclick.com/jimcanrock


#74 User is offline   Joan Icon

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 06:06 PM

View Postjonie, on 27 February 2012 - 05:11 PM, said:

... I could not rest my head on my pillow at night if I ever found myself in bed with the creature. Fortunately, RNR Jim has assured me that is never going to happen. :lol:

*sigh of relief.
Well, I spent enough years in bed with the Defense creature that I probably shouldn't get into that. There are degrees of separation, but even in Force Health Protection we were all still there to facilitate the overall enterprise of killing people and blowing stuff up. I mean, er, preserving all our liberties. Most of my country writer friends from my Norfolk days were highly grounded and nuanced as individuals, and spoke longingly about wanting to push the envelope of the genre. But you wouldn't know they even cared from the stuff they were actually writing and submitting. Rejection had colored their perspectives, and they talked about having to actually make it into the room before you can rearrange the furniture.

#75 User is offline   porcupine Icon

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 08:56 AM

View Postjonie, on 27 February 2012 - 04:58 PM, said:

View Postporcupine, on 27 February 2012 - 02:47 PM, said:

All I listen to is the 3:00 minute song channel now.

Porcupine



Good boy.

Can't have anyone climbing the fences. Less is more. Remember that.


I'll stay down here on the grass, catching food, while others fish in the sky. LOL :)

The shortest song I ever wrote was 3:00 minutes, anything shorter, it may be a jingle more than a song. lol
#1 song on Onstage.com's Holiday Playlist in Nov 2011 "Could This Be Christmas"
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#76 User is offline   Kenneth Bradshaw Icon

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 11:39 AM

View Postporcupine, on 27 February 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

I just got word...all songs now need to be written under 2:30

Porcupine

I'm sorry. I tried to write a song in under 2:30. The closest I got was I once wrote one in under an hour. Does that count?

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 11:50 AM

I don't have problems with conventions. With my ADD, having a format to understand things is a comfort. I do have a couple of opinions, though.

1) I'd rather have an aspiring songwriter mess up gloriously following his own muse, than play it safe.
2) Most lyrical structures take a back seat to the dictates of the melody
3) Corollary to 2) the melody to a song is usually far more important than the lyrics
4) The key to writing melodies is to understand broken chords.
5) Boldness is probably to most important ingredient to writing a good song
6) A good song and a successful song are often the same thing, but not always.

Ken

#78 User is offline   Roger Icon

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 12:36 PM

View PostKenneth Bradshaw, on 28 February 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

I don't have problems with conventions. With my ADD, having a format to understand things is a comfort. I do have a couple of opinions, though.

1) I'd rather have an aspiring songwriter mess up gloriously following his own muse, than play it safe.
2) Most lyrical structures take a back seat to the dictates of the melody
3) Corollary to 2) the melody to a song is usually far more important than the lyrics
4) The key to writing melodies is to understand broken chords.
5) Boldness is probably to most important ingredient to writing a good song
6) A good song and a successful song are often the same thing, but not always.

Ken


RE: your points
1) I agree completely, especially in the early stages of learning to write.
2) I don't believe in the concept that a lyric has to meter perfectly, but I also think the melody should be flexible.
3) completely disagree - maybe it's genre specific, but for me a great melody can be ruined by a crappy lyric
4) not sure what you mean by 'broken chords', can you elaborate?
5) absolutely agree in stretching the envelope
6) agree completely again...my favorite songs that I've written haven't been recorded...I'm proud of those that have been, but some I barely recall writing

#79 User is offline   Bruce N Icon

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 01:00 PM

Quote

I also think that the constraint isn't an issue. Constraints breed creativity.

Oh sure, next thing you know, the whole neighborhood is being overrun with those little bastards. Posted Image

Quote

There is that, fer sure. Not entirely convinced the industry can be held to a great deal of blame for rewarding the attitudes of its least common denominating and dominating customer. - that remains a bigger problem for America. Themes or hooks which include the words God, Jesus, USA or freedom are sure-fire money makers. It's money driven. I would hope for but would not expect anything else.

"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public." - H. L. Mencken Posted Image

Quote

Can't have anyone climbing the fences. Less is more. Remember that.

I remember a colleague I used to work with, his name was Les Moore, originally from the UK, and to listen to him talk, his name was certainly a contradiction. Posted Image
The views and opinions expressed by me in the "Off Topic Forum" are mine, and mine alone and should not be considered as representing the views and opinions of this site, the site owner, or that of other Moderators.







#80 User is offline   Alistair S Icon

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 02:32 PM

View PostRoger, on 28 February 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

View PostKenneth Bradshaw, on 28 February 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

I don't have problems with conventions. With my ADD, having a format to understand things is a comfort. I do have a couple of opinions, though.

1) I'd rather have an aspiring songwriter mess up gloriously following his own muse, than play it safe.
2) Most lyrical structures take a back seat to the dictates of the melody
3) Corollary to 2) the melody to a song is usually far more important than the lyrics
4) The key to writing melodies is to understand broken chords.
5) Boldness is probably to most important ingredient to writing a good song
6) A good song and a successful song are often the same thing, but not always.

Ken


RE: your points
1) I agree completely, especially in the early stages of learning to write.
2) I don't believe in the concept that a lyric has to meter perfectly, but I also think the melody should be flexible.
3) completely disagree - maybe it's genre specific, but for me a great melody can be ruined by a crappy lyric
4) not sure what you mean by 'broken chords', can you elaborate?
5) absolutely agree in stretching the envelope
6) agree completely again...my favorite songs that I've written haven't been recorded...I'm proud of those that have been, but some I barely recall writing


Pretty much what Roger said.. except for point 2 (maybe, or maybe we are in furious agreement!). I think it is always possible to say the same thing differently to fit a melody (often better) and the words should, at some point, bend around the song. Getting to that point is a negotiation (with yourself or with your cowriter).
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"When I was 5 years old, my mum always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wante to be when I grew up. I wrote down, "Happy". The told me I didn't understand the assignment and I told them they didn't understand life." John Lennon.

#81 User is offline   Kenneth Bradshaw Icon

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 02:36 PM

C, E, and G played together create a chord. C, E, and G played one after the other create a broken chord and often a melody. I believe that 99.99999% of all melodies are actually broken chords. Sometimes every note in the melody is on the chord. If you give me a chord pattern, it is a slam dunk to create a melody based on it.

Here is an example in my writing of a melody where the verse is entirely a broken chord:
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=89rs1ohzIR8

If an entire melody is not on the chord, usually the off notes hover around the 2 and 4 beats of a 4/4 measure. Almost always melodies land on one of the chord notes on beats 1 & 3. There are exceptions, but this is a solid rule of thumb

My recent attempt at creating a melody based on Pachelbel's canon has the chords and then 4 different moving lines. All of them except the treble clef of the piano are entirely broken chords and that piano part still hits the chord on beats 1 & 3.
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=wJ4QsNBfbrg

This took only 2 1/2 hours to write on a Sunday evening when I was doped up with Nyquil. Once you undertand broken chords, then melodies are 50% creativity and 50% knowledge of the chords.

Ken

#82 User is offline   Roger Icon

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 02:53 PM

View PostAlistair S, on 28 February 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

View PostRoger, on 28 February 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

View PostKenneth Bradshaw, on 28 February 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

I don't have problems with conventions. With my ADD, having a format to understand things is a comfort. I do have a couple of opinions, though.

1) I'd rather have an aspiring songwriter mess up gloriously following his own muse, than play it safe.
2) Most lyrical structures take a back seat to the dictates of the melody
3) Corollary to 2) the melody to a song is usually far more important than the lyrics
4) The key to writing melodies is to understand broken chords.
5) Boldness is probably to most important ingredient to writing a good song
6) A good song and a successful song are often the same thing, but not always.

Ken


RE: your points
1) I agree completely, especially in the early stages of learning to write.
2) I don't believe in the concept that a lyric has to meter perfectly, but I also think the melody should be flexible.
3) completely disagree - maybe it's genre specific, but for me a great melody can be ruined by a crappy lyric
4) not sure what you mean by 'broken chords', can you elaborate?
5) absolutely agree in stretching the envelope
6) agree completely again...my favorite songs that I've written haven't been recorded...I'm proud of those that have been, but some I barely recall writing


Pretty much what Roger said.. except for point 2 (maybe, or maybe we are in furious agreement!). I think it is always possible to say the same thing differently to fit a melody (often better) and the words should, at some point, bend around the song. Getting to that point is a negotiation (with yourself or with your cowriter).


I think we're in semi-agreement on #2. I concur that lyrics should conform to some degree to melody, but not to the point of counting syllables in each line (I've had a few cowriters in my day who did this...drove me crazy). I was lucky in that my first publishing deal was with MCA Music when Dave Loggins was signed there. I got to be good friends with Dave and learned a lot about writing from him. He was always pretty adamant about saying what you need to say, and if need be make the melody conform to that. A good example of this is one of his hits, linked below:
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=odo9mTDgVJE
(hope I'm not breaking any rules on here by posting that, it's just a great example)

#83 User is offline   neuroron Icon

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 03:02 PM

View PostKenneth Bradshaw, on 28 February 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

C, E, and G played together create a chord. C, E, and G play one after the other create a broken chord and often a melody. I believe that 99.99999% of all melodies are actually broken chords. Sometimes every note in the melody is on the chord. If you give me a chord pattern, it is a slam dunk to create a melody based on it.

Here is an example in my writing of a melody where the verse is entirely a broken chord:
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=89rs1ohzIR8

If an entire melody is not on the chord, usually the off notes hover around the 2 and 4 beats of a 4/4 measure. Almost always melodies land on one of the chord notes on beats 1 & 3. There are exceptions, but this is a solid rule of thumb

My recent attempt at creating a melody based on Pachelbel's canon has the chords and then 4 different moving lines. All of them except the treble clef of the piano are entirely broken chords and that piano part still hits the chord on beats 1 & 3.
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=wJ4QsNBfbrg

This took only 2 1/2 hours to write on a Sunday evening when I was doped up with Nyquil. Once you undertand broken chords, then melodies are 50% creativity and 50% knowledge of the chords.

Ken


Actually, I think melodies are better when there is more stepwise movement - i.e., not moving primarily in thirds (or more) but primarily in seconds with leaps and skips less often - - Melodies that stay primarily on chordal notes tend to get a bit boring (IMHO) as they tend to lack the tension produced by the off-chord notes. Also, glorious melodies are created by people with no chordal knowledge, no chordal accompaniment (i.e., a capella) and with the same melody against different chordal accompaniments. Just MHO of course - and sorry off topic for a "three minute song" thread.
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Posted 28 February 2012 - 03:04 PM

Of course, when building a song, sometimes you sand the lyrics and sometimes you sand the melody.

#85 User is offline   Kenneth Bradshaw Icon

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 03:06 PM

View Postneuroron, on 28 February 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

View PostKenneth Bradshaw, on 28 February 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

C, E, and G played together create a chord. C, E, and G play one after the other create a broken chord and often a melody. I believe that 99.99999% of all melodies are actually broken chords. Sometimes every note in the melody is on the chord. If you give me a chord pattern, it is a slam dunk to create a melody based on it.

Here is an example in my writing of a melody where the verse is entirely a broken chord:
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=89rs1ohzIR8

If an entire melody is not on the chord, usually the off notes hover around the 2 and 4 beats of a 4/4 measure. Almost always melodies land on one of the chord notes on beats 1 & 3. There are exceptions, but this is a solid rule of thumb

My recent attempt at creating a melody based on Pachelbel's canon has the chords and then 4 different moving lines. All of them except the treble clef of the piano are entirely broken chords and that piano part still hits the chord on beats 1 & 3.
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=wJ4QsNBfbrg

This took only 2 1/2 hours to write on a Sunday evening when I was doped up with Nyquil. Once you undertand broken chords, then melodies are 50% creativity and 50% knowledge of the chords.

Ken


Actually, I think melodies are better when there is more stepwise movement - i.e., not moving primarily in thirds (or more) but primarily in seconds with leaps and skips less often - - Melodies that stay primarily on chordal notes tend to get a bit boring (IMHO) as they tend to lack the tension produced by the off-chord notes. Also, glorious melodies are created by people with no chordal knowledge, no chordal accompaniment (i.e., a capella) and with the same melody against different chordal accompaniments. Just MHO of course - and sorry off topic for a "three minute song" thread.



I agree, but what you have actually done is changed the chord.

#86 User is offline   Alistair S Icon

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 03:38 PM

View PostRoger, on 28 February 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

I think we're in semi-agreement on #2. I concur that lyrics should conform to some degree to melody, but not to the point of counting syllables in each line (I've had a few cowriters in my day who did this...drove me crazy). I was lucky in that my first publishing deal was with MCA Music when Dave Loggins was signed there. I got to be good friends with Dave and learned a lot about writing from him. He was always pretty adamant about saying what you need to say, and if need be make the melody conform to that. A good example of this is one of his hits, linked below:
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=odo9mTDgVJE
(hope I'm not breaking any rules on here by posting that, it's just a great example)


I think we're in full agreement :)
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#87 User is offline   zmulls Icon

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 05:40 PM

Which came first, the chord or the melody? ;-)

I've seen songs constructed both ways (a chord progression with someone creating a melody above it, and a melody where someone constructs a chord progression below it). I think, in general, the ear expects to hear notes in the melody that are part of the underlying chord, so there's no great revelation there; but it's not a rule that you can't go "off chord" when singing. I'm working on some songs right now with a composer, where I'm doing a lot of the melodic line composing, and we both like the surprise and dissonance when we choose a note that is in conflict with the chord below. But you can't do that all the time.
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#88 User is offline   porcupine Icon

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 08:40 AM

and sorry off topic for a "three minute song" thread.
[/quote]


I agree, but what you have actually done is changed the chord.
[/quote]


View Postzmulls, on 28 February 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

Which came first, the chord or the melody? ;-)

I've seen songs constructed both ways (a chord progression with someone creating a melody above it, and a melody where someone constructs a chord progression below it). I think, in general, the ear expects to hear notes in the melody that are part of the underlying chord, so there's no great revelation there; but it's not a rule that you can't go "off chord" when singing. I'm working on some songs right now with a composer, where I'm doing a lot of the melodic line composing, and we both like the surprise and dissonance when we choose a note that is in conflict with the chord below. But you can't do that all the time.



I have to agree to an extent. Let's say you have a melody in mind. and thats all, no chords yet, you just hear it in your head. lets say the melody is C B C E E E G G D.... When you get home, your chords change everything. I love the dissonance of adding a strange chord to a melody like this. that melody over an Emin chord is much different than a D major7. Change it up to multiple chords over that melody line, it can get quite involved and that only if you think of the melody line first.

This is where the true spirit of originality lies for me. Its finding a slightly different take on i iii v notes over a major chord. you can take this too far though and limit your listening audience to a few select jazz players that get it or crazy people who already have 6 songs going in their head. I like the pop side with a little stamp on calling it your own, that's the orginal reason why I questioned the 3 minute song...is it even viable today as compared to the days of vinyl?

Good stuuf on this thread, makes you think

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#89 User is offline   TimC Icon

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 12:25 AM

View PostRoger, on 28 February 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

3) completely disagree - maybe it's genre specific, but for me a great melody can be ruined by a crappy lyric

Yes, but... great music can salvage a crappy lyric, while the converse is rarely if ever true.

#90 User is offline   Roger Icon

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 09:07 AM

View PostTimC, on 01 March 2012 - 11:25 PM, said:

View PostRoger, on 28 February 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

3) completely disagree - maybe it's genre specific, but for me a great melody can be ruined by a crappy lyric

Yes, but... great music can salvage a crappy lyric, while the converse is rarely if ever true.



This gets into areas of personal opinions, but again I would disagree. Bob Dylan forged an entire career with great lyrics and average music. Bad lyrics make any song unlistenable to me, regardless of how good the music is. There are very rare exceptions, of course, and it may just be an issue of my ear being more tuned in towards lyrics.

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 12:36 PM

View PostRoger, on 02 March 2012 - 08:07 AM, said:

View PostTimC, on 01 March 2012 - 11:25 PM, said:

View PostRoger, on 28 February 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

3) completely disagree - maybe it's genre specific, but for me a great melody can be ruined by a crappy lyric

Yes, but... great music can salvage a crappy lyric, while the converse is rarely if ever true.



This gets into areas of personal opinions, but again I would disagree. Bob Dylan forged an entire career with great lyrics and average music. Bad lyrics make any song unlistenable to me, regardless of how good the music is. There are very rare exceptions, of course, and it may just be an issue of my ear being more tuned in towards lyrics.


I think great music can salvage a RECORD/TRACK (as opposed to a song) with less than adequate lyrics (though this is genre specific) - HOWEVER, if you want someone to record/cover your SONG the recording artist has to love your lyrics - When someone else records your song the melody will certainly be altered anywhere from a little to a lot, as will likely the chords, groove, etc, - In one of the TAXI discussions in Home Recording recently someone was saying they thought the lyrics were "everything" as far wanting to record someone else's song. In their words: The lyrics ARE the song.
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#92 User is offline   Kenneth Bradshaw Icon

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 01:32 PM

View Postneuroron, on 02 March 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

View PostRoger, on 02 March 2012 - 08:07 AM, said:

View PostTimC, on 01 March 2012 - 11:25 PM, said:

View PostRoger, on 28 February 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

3) completely disagree - maybe it's genre specific, but for me a great melody can be ruined by a crappy lyric

Yes, but... great music can salvage a crappy lyric, while the converse is rarely if ever true.



This gets into areas of personal opinions, but again I would disagree. Bob Dylan forged an entire career with great lyrics and average music. Bad lyrics make any song unlistenable to me, regardless of how good the music is. There are very rare exceptions, of course, and it may just be an issue of my ear being more tuned in towards lyrics.


I think great music can salvage a RECORD/TRACK (as opposed to a song) with less than adequate lyrics (though this is genre specific) - HOWEVER, if you want someone to record/cover your SONG the recording artist has to love your lyrics - When someone else records your song the melody will certainly be altered anywhere from a little to a lot, as will likely the chords, groove, etc, - In one of the TAXI discussions in Home Recording recently someone was saying they thought the lyrics were "everything" as far wanting to record someone else's song. In their words: The lyrics ARE the song.


I think we spend too much time nitpicking little things and not enough time kissing pretty girls.

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 02:26 PM

View PostKenneth Bradshaw, on 02 March 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

View Postneuroron, on 02 March 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

View PostRoger, on 02 March 2012 - 08:07 AM, said:

View PostTimC, on 01 March 2012 - 11:25 PM, said:

View PostRoger, on 28 February 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:


I think we spend too much time nitpicking little things and not enough time kissing pretty girls.
Ken



I didn't know there was an option. LOL

As far as good music/bad lyrics or bad music/good lyrics , why not shoot for both? Id much rather hear clever, well written lyrics over great music than having one outshine the other.

I think when Roger may read a bad lyric, its just like a guitar player hearing a guitar out of tune (not intentionally).

I do think that if there is an outstanding lyric or composition, it does get attention. The problem is then we "accept" the flaw a bit more because there is something we like there.

P

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#94 User is offline   R-N-R Jim Icon

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 07:20 PM

Hi
Try as I may, I like to think Ive written lyrics that don't take away from the melodies I write. I probably write average to good lyrics in my songs enough that the lyrics sometimes actually add to the song and if they take you somewhere along with the music, then that's great. But for me, the melody comes first and if I don't get your interest in the melody right off the bat, I may as well have the recipe off of a rice box for lyrics(Hold the soy sauce).

just my two cents worth
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Posted 03 March 2012 - 05:43 AM

Quote

But for me, the melody comes first and if I don't get your interest in the melody right off the bat, I may as well have the recipe off of a rice box for lyrics(Hold the soy sauce).


Thats totally the same for me too Jim..The melody/chord movement/structure is what i'm instinctively listening out for when listening to 'new' music- and is maybe 90% of why i'm gonna like/dislike something..I've prob got the same sensitivity to that (like you ) -as Roger has for lyrics - Totally predictable,cliche chord changes n melodies will (nearly always ) kill a song for me -regardless of the quality of the lyric it has..

Roger...Alot of Bob Dylans music (in the 60s/70s) was great too..Tho the dramatic quality n rythm in his vocal delivery is so compelling,he makes himself almost an exception for me..That quality means can get away with something with far less musical interest than his many imitators f'sure..

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 04:26 PM

View PostKenneth Bradshaw, on 02 March 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

()()()()()(.;.;.;.;.;.;.;[][][][][][]%$$%$%$%$%$@#@#@#@#*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*!@!@!@!@!@!@!@

I think we spend too much time nitpicking little things and not enough time kissing pretty girls.

Ken

:lol: :P :D

That too!!!! And what about just writing songs? B)
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Posted 03 March 2012 - 05:25 PM

View PostRoger, on 02 March 2012 - 09:07 AM, said:

This gets into areas of personal opinions, but again I would disagree. Bob Dylan forged an entire career with great lyrics and average music. Bad lyrics make any song unlistenable to me, regardless of how good the music is. There are very rare exceptions, of course, and it may just be an issue of my ear being more tuned in towards lyrics.


My ear is also very tuned to lyrics but I honestly can't say that I'm really paying attention to them during a first listen. I'll pick up the hook line, if it's strong enough and repeated a couple of times, and I'll probably get a sense of the rhyming. The rhythm/beat and melody is what really getting through, and at an almost subliminal level. If it engages me enough and I listen a few more times, I'll be listening to the lyric.

Unless of course, the flow is interrupted by a lyric which doesn't match the meter of the melody or if the singer's phrasing of it is way off. It's like a bucket of cold water in the face to me. It prematurely introduces the lyric to my experience and destroys it for me. I won't listen again.

One more exception to this, a song where the lyric and vocal are the song. Some acoustic and Broadway musical songs. A good example of a song where the lyric draws attention to itself, over the music, is Alistair's Man in my Position

I dare anyone to listen to it and not find the lyric immediately engaging. In fact, most of his songs are very lyric driven.

As far as the particulars of a lyric itself, if I like the way a song sounds, musically, I'm less likely to stop listening simply because the lyric may tell a story or have subject matter I don't find particularly interesting or engaging.

Songwriters should strive for both but for me, great music and melody can overcome a lyric that is less than what it could be.
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Posted 04 March 2012 - 08:46 AM

For what its worth I think Taylor Swift has some excellent songs - I am cynical enough about the music industry to be doubtful that she wrote any of the good ones, but they are good songs. The kind that make me wish I could have done that!

She has a dodgy voice, by professional standards , although the voice on her first album is excellent (which is how she started out)

Am I the only one that likes the occasional piece of commercial-grade songwriting?
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Posted 04 March 2012 - 09:49 AM

View Postfabkebab, on 04 March 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

Am I the only one that likes the occasional piece of commercial-grade songwriting?


Not at all. A lot of it is great. ABBA would be a good case in point (successful but a little sneered at back in their day, but I think their talent is maybe more widely recognised now).
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Posted 04 March 2012 - 12:17 PM

View PostAlistair S, on 04 March 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

View Postfabkebab, on 04 March 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

Am I the only one that likes the occasional piece of commercial-grade songwriting?


Not at all. A lot of it is great. ABBA would be a good case in point (successful but a little sneered at back in their day, but I think their talent is maybe more widely recognised now).


I liked ABBA the first time 'round too! (although I was only 8 or so at the time)
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