[Len]

Righty-ho, time for scoring. I appreciate that this challenge may have been quite tricky but I hope it's taken everyone on an interesting journey. As always we come out with a bunch of brand new songs and new songwriting teams.

Please give each song a score between 1 and 10, half marks allowed, by the end of Sat 24th March and I'll announce the winners on the Sunday. Everyone must vote please.

The teams are:

Team 2 Mr Fitz and Joan - link
Team 3 Graybeard and AMereHobbyist - link
Team 4 Jonie and Scenes from Palacio - link
Team 5 Starsinmyeyes and Scotto - link
Team 6 Kimblerlyinnc and Scubed - link
Team 7 AlistairS and Neuroron - link

[ScenesFromPalacio]

Is voting open to non participants as well Len ?

[Len]

ScenesFromPalacio, on 20 March 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

Is voting open to non participants as well Len ?

Sure

[scubed]

Are there any special criteria for scoring the songs? Should the degree to which the song adheres to the "Jolene" structure be a factor?

[Len]

scubed, on 20 March 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

Are there any special criteria for scoring the songs? Should the degree to which the song adheres to the "Jolene" structure be a factor?

No, purely a best song decision.

Just to clarify, I refer to my earlier post:

Quote

For scoring this, I will just ask each contestant to score the songs as they see fit.

So if you want to take the closeness of the song to Jolene into account that's up to you. I also stated that I would not make any conditions on teams to hold to any part of structure. Mainly because it's subjective (rhyme structure, thematic structure, chord structure, and on and on). I do not want to dictate any scoring as it's a minefield to do so.

[Alistair S]

Len, on 20 March 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

ScenesFromPalacio, on 20 March 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

Is voting open to non participants as well Len ?

Sure

Are you going to publicise it, Len?

If not, I might. Some great songs here.

[Scotto]

Wow! What a great bunch of mutants we've unleashed on the world! Tough voting ahead...

[Len]

Alistair S, on 20 March 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

Are you going to publicise it, Len?

Thanks for the reminder Al, I've posted up in Musical Conversation

[Len]

Scotto, on 21 March 2012 - 02:42 AM, said:

Wow! What a great bunch of mutants we've unleashed on the world! Tough voting ahead...

Yeh I love how similar and also different they are to the original.

[jonie]

Len, on 21 March 2012 - 05:28 AM, said:

Alistair S, on 20 March 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

Are you going to publicise it, Len?

Thanks for the reminder Al, I've posted up in Musical Conversation

I'll bump it to the top as soon as my birthday wishes are done.

[NigeQ]

Len, on 20 March 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

The teams are:

Team 2 Mr Fitz and Joan - link
Team 3 Graybeard and AMereHobbyist - link
Team 4 Jonie and Scenes from Palacio - link
Team 5 Starsinmyeyes and Scotto - link
Team 6 Kimblerlyinnc and Scubed - link
Team 7 AlistairS and Neuroron - link

Looks like we are voting on the teams and not the songs, how about:

Petals Of The Rose - Mr Fitz and Joan
Stranger to Truth - Graybeard and AMereHobbyist
Surface Of The Moon - Jonie and Scenes from Palacio
Tin Man - Starsinmyeyes and Scotto
Broken - Kimblerlyinnc and Scubed
When We’re Gone - AlistairS and Neuroron

[Len]

All teams have voted and just a few hours to go for any more non-contestant votes to come in.

[jonie]

Len, on 24 March 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

All teams have voted and just a few hours to go for any more non-contestant votes to come in.

Have you received votes from a decent number of non-contestant voters? Is it worth posting up a last minute plea on the Lyrics and Songs Feedback forums?

[Len]

Scoring is over. All contestants voted plus the following non contestant voters and thanks to all of them:

• Bernabby
• NigeQ
• Dottie
• Randy P Gedron
• Gordon
• Daddio

Also, my apologies to JoeINJAX who I missed off the team list through my own cock-up. Also apologies to IronKnee who missed out when the contest switched to a new thread.

I've never written a song this way so my admiration to all of you who took it on. I hope it was fun.

On to the results:
First place goes to Team 4 Jonie and Scenes from Palacio with Surface of the Moon
Second place to Team 7 AlistairS and Neuroron with When We're Gone
Third place to Team 2 Mr Fitz and Joan with Petals of the Rose

Full results are (average score first)
Petals Of The Rose - Mr Fitz and Joan 7.31 6 8 9 9 9 4 5 8.5 8 8 8.5 8 7 9 5 6.5 7 6
Stranger to Truth - Graybeard and AMereHobbyist 6.58 5 6.5 7.5 7 6 6 8 7 6 8.5 8.5 6 5 7 6 5.5 8 5
Surface Of The Moon - Jonie and Scenes from Palacio 8.08 8 8.5 8.5 8.5 8 5 7.5 8 7 10 9 9 8 8.5 8 7 8 9
Tin Man - Starsinmyeyes and Scotto 7.06 6 9 7 7.5 7.5 3 8.5 7.5 7.5 9 7.5 6 7 8 6 6 7 7
Broken - Kimblerlyinnc and Scubed 6.72 5 7 6 7.5 7 5 9 7.5 6.5 8 8 6 6 7.5 8 5 7 5
When We’re Gone - AlistairS and Neuroron 8.00 6 8 7.5 6 7 7 7.5 6.5 9 8 9.5 7 10 10 7 10 9 9

[Alistair S]

Congratulations, Jonie and Steve! When I saw the teams, I thought, "That one's going to take some beating!)

I had you and Joan/MrFitz as my top scores, though I thought everyone did well.

Many thanks to Len for running the contest and to Ron, who is always a great collaborator!

[bernabby]

A difficult one to score because I wasn't sure what criteria to use for the scoring. Was it just the best overall in terms or writing, melody and production or lyrically following the format provided? Liberties were taken in not following the Jolene Lyric format so I was not quite sure why that was provided as a conceptual theme.

[Joan]

Congratulations Alistair/Ron and Jonie/Steve, you were my top two! And great job, everybody. When the matchups were announced I figured we were screwed anyway, so let's have fun with it. I didn't know John's work at all but I did know my own skill level as an engineer and arranger, and picker. So, as I said, screwed. I'm deeply touched that we didn't embarrass ourselves with only the bones of a song for an entry. People on the Muse really listen, and look past a lot to get at the essence, and for that I'm grateful. Thanks John for giving me such a nice lyric. Any musician in the comp would have had an edge with those words to play with.

Joe and Ironknee would have made one fearsome team, sorry to have missed that.

Len -- Thanks for running a wonderful comp.

[Alistair S]

Joan, on 25 March 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

Joe and Ironknee would have made one fearsome team, sorry to have missed that.

Yes, indeed!

Bernabby, the Jolene song structure was a means to an end - the "end" being the new song. As far as I was concerned, the contest was to write a song and the scoring was on the best song. I struggle to see the point of scoring (or writing a song) in any other way.

[Joan]

My favorite song of the comp was When We're Gone. But the disparate elements of Surface of the Moon were my favorite parts in the comp. Jonie's lyric killed me, which I read before hearing the song. It brought back memories of "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" and other old Heinlein stories. I was all set for a tune that matched the bleakness of the theme, and Steve's upbeat treatment was a surprise. It worked on me as gallows humor, ala Country Joe MacDonald ("Whoopie! we're all gonna die!"). Metaphysical wit = heterogeneous elements yoked together by violence. Loved it.

When We're Gone just flat-out worked, to my ear the best overall song and easiest marriage of words with sound.

[neuroron]

Congratulations to everyone for picking up the gauntlet and delivering in such a grand and diverse fashion. Thanks Len for coming up with such a great prompt and running the whole thing so smoothly.

I had "Petals of the Rose" (Mr Fitz and Joan) - Bare bones maybe, but beautiful bones indeed! - and "Surface Of The Moon" - (Jonie and Scenes from Palacio) as my two top choices, but all the songs were so (happily) dissimilar that it seemed a shame to score them against each other. Like Alistair (hardly a surprise ) I saw Len's prompt as merely an initiating technique and I just scored (and wrote) that way. I knew that others might not see it like that, but that’s okay too.

Alistair was a great collaborator and I thoroughly enjoyed the opportunities we had to collaborate in real time (on Skype). This contest is one of the most enjoyable things here on the Muse and the result is a song that would never have been conceived otherwise.

Thanks everyone for letting me be part of this!! – Ron

[AMereHobbyist]

Congratulations to all. I scored less than 3 marks total difference between all the five I voted for (and with the same top three except for 1st and 2nd places reversed).
It was an interesting competition and produced a crop of very listenable songs.

Thanks to Len for picking up the reins and getting the whole thing back on track. I'm glad I was able to climb back on board this time - sorry Nathan that I didn't actually improve on the ranking you seemed to be left with after Stewart was sadly unable to continue, but I gave it my best shot.
Frank.

[MrFitz]

Hey - Well done everybody for a great contest! And to Len for its resurrection!

It was a tough old contest lyrically with a restricted frame but for me that made it all the more interesting! It was great fun working with Joan, likewise I hadn't heard much (if any) of her own work so we went in a bit eyes cold - played around with writing a sequel for Jolene only to find it was hard to shake of the ghost of such a great song! So just through it out the window and looked at it just from the structural point of view and was able to write the lyric.

Like Joan said when the teams were announced there were some beasts of teams competing - possibly some of the strongest field I've seen for a while (is a shame Joe and Ironknee would of been even stronger!) that we were "hell lets just have fun here" but then I heard what Joan did with it - she turned the lyric into a beautiful raw song, I couldnt of asked for a better outcome! Thanks Joan!

I had the winners tied in second behind TinMan - such a great tune Scottos vocals swung that one for me! I think after freeing myself from the "ghost of Jolene" I just looked at the songs at just being songs when voting - they are so varied and different - they are truly our monsters

[scubed]

Jonie and Steve, congratulations on your win! Jonie’s knockout lyric and Steve’s great music are a wonderful combination, and I could see Jolene’s bones when I looked for them. I had you in second place, a half point behind Joan and Mr. Fitz, who produced a lovely, lovely song and were very thoughtful in relating their song to Jolene.

Ron and Alistair, congratulations on producing a song that you are proud of and that so many people like. The chorus is quite catchy.

Len, as I’ve said to you before, I’m very grateful you decided to keep this contest going. Many thanks!

I considered not posting in this thread, but decided that I didn’t want to seem ungracious or risk having my silence over-interpreted. SOOO - here goes: Simply put, I am a little confused at the way the contest morphed into using "Jolene" as “a means to an end - the 'end' being the new song“ (to use Alistair’s phrase) from what Len’s actual instructions were:

Len, on 18 February 2012 - 06:40 AM, said:

Genius Stars (and thanks for the lyric Bruce!)This is called the Scaffold technique and here's a description: http://www.joelmabus...g_exercises.htmSo start with the Lyric of Jolene and write a new lyric over the top. Try to follow the structure as closely as you can. Then the musician will write a song for the new lyric.Or the musician could write a new song for Jolene, and the lyricist then changes the lyric. Whatever works. Then refine and polish.To quote Joel Mabus:

Quote

What remains is a new song with only a hint of the "ghost" song that acted as a scaffold for the process.

The basic structure of Jolene is:

• Chorus Verse Verse Chorus Verse Chorus
• The hook is used at the end of each half verse and also in the chorus
• The chorus rhyme scheme is ABAB
• The verse rhyme scheme is AABCCB

You don't have to follow this basic structure - as what is important in structure differs between folks - so just work it out for yourselves and see where it takes you But a good start is to write a new lyric over the top of Jolene.That is why I would like the teams to post how they went about this, as well as the song they wrote.for scoring this, I will just ask each contestant to score the songs as they see fit.

Admittedly, Len left a little wiggle room in those instructions, but overall it was pretty clear that we were all to try to write a scaffold song, and see how far away we could get from “Jolene” while adhering to its structure. Since that was our assignment, I thought (and still think) that adherence to the basic “Jolene” structure should have been a scoring factor, and I was surprised that it wasn’t.

I was a bit disappointed with some posts in this thread after the contest was already under way. To me at least, it sounded as if some folks were blowing off the contest challenge – it struck me the same way it would have if someone in last spring’s comp had announced they didn’t like the murder ballad theme and had decided to write a really nice love song instead.

All that said, I enjoyed participating in the contest and listening to the fine songs all the teams produced. It was thoroughly delightful working with Kim, and I was glad of a reason to expand my very limited recording and mixing experience.

Next time I’ll ask for more clarification on the front end.

Regards to all,

Sharon

[Scotto]

Really a great set of songs here. While me make music into contests, and winning sure would be swell, music is subjective and we have a great group of songs here. I'm so happy to have a consistent set of votes scored this time. It means that Stars and I were able to put out a more consistent sounding song which is where you want to be when making any song.

Thanks so much Mr Fritz! That we would be on top of anyone's list is a really cool affirmation. For myself I was really torn between 3 songs and I think I eventually went with 'When We're Gone' in the voting but it was tough! I really liked the swing and jazzy feel of that one.

As for the rules I really liked this as an exercise. I think you could hear a little Jolene in every song and the wiggle room in the song left a lot to interpretation. If we were tasked to stay as close as possible to Jolene, I wouldn't have been as interested in the contest because there wouldn't be as much room for creativity and this is all about being creative. Besides, sometimes these songs take on a life of their own and kind of drive themselves when your working on them... or is that just me?

[Alistair S]

Hi Sharon,

If you felt that the instructions were that strict, I can understand your frustration. For me, there were two parts of the instructions that tell me that all of the songs met the challenge.

From the description of the technique..

Quote

A ) Take some song you like — any song at all from any era, any style — just so long as it is familiar to you.

B ) Write a new lyric to that song. Verse for verse, chorus for chorus, refrain for refrain.

C ) Take that new lyric and write completely new music to it. Try switching keys, time signatures, tempo, etc., to remove yourself from the original.

D ) Edit. Adjust your new words and melody to fit your newly established mood. Rewrite as necessary.

What remains is a new song with only a hint of the “ghost” song that acted as a scaffold for the process.

Also, in your quoted instructions from Len .. "You don't have to follow this basic structure - as what is important in structure differs between folks - so just work it out for yourselves and see where it takes you." (and, later in that same post, "for scoring this, I will just ask each contestant to score the songs as they see fit."

For me, the instructions were pretty clear. The scaffold technique gets you started when you are stuck, but doesn't determine where you end up. I do accept that others may have seen it differently though.

That said, I think most songs remained very close to Jolene, including the winner. Ron and I discussed the likelihood that ours may be scored down by anyone who wanted a Jolene clone and decided that was OK with us.

[bernabby]

Alistair S, on 25 March 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

Hi Sharon,

If you felt that the instructions were that strict, I can understand your frustration. For me, there were two parts of the instructions that tell me that all of the songs met the challenge.

From the description of the technique..

Quote

A ) Take some song you like — any song at all from any era, any style — just so long as it is familiar to you.

B ) Write a new lyric to that song. Verse for verse, chorus for chorus, refrain for refrain.

Quote

As a non-participant I didn't read all the edits. I thought the lyrics were to follow Jolene's structure and the musicians were to create original music to the lyric. If the task was to take any other song the lyricist should have identified the lryic and the ghost writing to that lyric.

C ) Take that new lyric and write completely new music to it. Try switching keys, time signatures, tempo, etc., to remove yourself from the original.

D ) Edit. Adjust your new words and melody to fit your newly established mood. Rewrite as necessary.

What remains is a new song with only a hint of the “ghost” song that acted as a scaffold for the process.

Also, in your quoted instructions from Len .. "You don't have to follow this basic structure - as what is important in structure differs between folks - so just work it out for yourselves and see where it takes you." (and, later in that same post, "for scoring this, I will just ask each contestant to score the songs as they see fit."

For me, the instructions were pretty clear. The scaffold technique gets you started when you are stuck, but doesn't determine where you end up. I do accept that others may have seen it differently though.

That said, I think most songs remained very close to Jolene, including the winner. Ron and I discussed the likelihood that ours may be scored down by anyone who wanted a Jolene clone and decided that was OK with us.

I'm just speaking from the perspective of a voter. Like other collab contests a theme or words had to be incorporated into the final song. I was under the impression that the challenge was to follow the lryical and metrical structure of Jolene.
The voting instructions then say to vote for the best song irrespective of the sample lyrical structure. For me, that was confusing because if it was just the best song why did it need the Jolene example. The details are in the details I guess. I think the confusion was evident in the entries. Some followed the structure while others deviated, in some cases, considerably. Not looking to start a controversy just clarification.

[Len]

I did say vote for the best song at one point, but corrected myself when someone pointed it out. I made the scoring criteria clear at the start - vote as you see fit.

Why use this structure at all? Because its an opportunity to learn a new way of writing and because its fun. Why follow the exercise at all? You can't legislate for gamesmanship but you can expect people to follow the spirit of a contest. I think everyone did.

Being candid, and with apologies to all lyricists, but these contests are usually won by the best musicians. The exercise has little to do with it. So we should all sit back, enjoy the ride and not worry so much about placings. This is always more about the process than the placings.

[bernabby]

Len, on 26 March 2012 - 12:32 AM, said:

I did say vote for the best song at one point, but corrected myself when someone pointed it out. I made the scoring criteria clear at the start - vote as you see fit.

Why use this structure at all? Because its an opportunity to learn a new way of writing and because its fun. Why follow the exercise at all? You can't legislate for gamesmanship but you can expect people to follow the spirit of a contest. I think everyone did.

Being candid, and with apologies to all lyricists, but these contests are usually won by the best musicians. The exercise has little to do with it. So we should all sit back, enjoy the ride and not worry so much about placings. This is always more about the process than the placings.

If that is the intended result I appreciate your candidness. The lyricist is then but a pimple in such a contest. It may very well be that the more talented musicians will always dominate these contests. If this exercise is always about the process why bother voting? I think hyping the process is more hope than reality. I admit to a bruised ego everytime my lyric ends up in the bottom 2. I imagine others may feel the same but not go on the record. I understand these contests are not handicapped (what I mean is like a horse race where a horse has to carry a few more pounds because he has won more races). However, I feel a structured challenge levels the field where lyrics and music are equally weighted. Where some comply while others take liberties makes it an apple and orange contest. If the bottom line is the best song then there should be no parameters.

[Len]

bernabby, on 26 March 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

Len, on 26 March 2012 - 12:32 AM, said:

Being candid, and with apologies to all lyricists, but these contests are usually won by the best musicians...

If that is the intended result I appreciate your candidness...

Not intent, observation.

If you didn't like the criteria, why did you vote?

[daddio]

I enjoyed listening to all the songs in the comp. I had Surface of The Moon and When We're Gone tied for top spot.
I think when a songwriter invests him or herself in a work, there will always be some hurt feelings when it's all over. But in the end, you've written a song and that's the best part. People will always vote by their own criteria and that's ok too. If we were talking about big money prizes that would be one thing but it's just a small comp among friends with no prize other than a pat on the back.
I thought all the songs were very close and had a difficult time judging and giving points. In the end, I voted for the songs I liked the best, that I thought had the best combination of lyric and melody.

[scubed]

Just to be clear, folks - my feelings aren't hurt. I'm simply a little annoyed that this challenge was presented in a certain way and then played out in another way.. Again, to me it's as if a love song had been entered in the murder ballad contest. Why have a challenge at all? It would have been easier to say to each team, "Go forth and write a song."

I would have enjoyed having six real scaffold songs resulting from the competition - that would have been really fun.

[Len]

On contest conditions
A few years ago there was a similar contest where one condition was to use the word "love" in the lyric. You couldn't make it up; there were interminable discussions about whether "loves", "love's", "loves'", "lovers" met the criteria.



Each time you set up a criteria to meet you create another discussion: when is a rhyme a rhyme, when is a chorus a chorus and not a refrain, what is the "structure" of Jolene? It's a spiral of despair, there's no end to it. Songs are not maths; there is no black and white, no right or wrong, it's largely subjective.

Finding problems with contests is easy; finding workable solutions is much harder. Everyone please remember that and how this contest nearly sank before it started due to these type of discussions.

On changing the contest half way through
I believe that I have been clear, bar one misleading post which I corrected shortly afterwards. No hard feelings on either side, but I'm a little disappointed as well. It's the never-ending focus on scores, scores, scores that sucks the pleasure out of it for me. Probably for Bruce as well.

A suggestion
If someone can suggest a set of scoring criteria for matching the exercise, and gets the agreement of each team, I will run a second round of voting to see out who matched Jolene the closest.

[Alistair S]

My only real disappointment is that we didn't get to see more logs showing how each song evolved from Jolene to its current form.

I think I now understand why. For me, the original instructions were clear and led to exactly the way it played out, but can now see that others saw it differently. That's a shame, but I'm not sure how it could have been avoided.

For what it's worth, I though the winner was a very close match to Jolene in structural terms. I also don't really care where we (Ron and I) came in the scoring (or even if we are to be disqualified). I'm very happy with the song and very happy that we were absolutely open about the route we were taking throughout the process.

[ScenesFromPalacio]

Thanx for voting Surface Of The Moon winner here and the kind words..Very much appreciated..
The result was actually incredibly close with Alistair n Ron -which i thought was an excellent -supa-catchy song..
It was great (and easy ) working with Jonie..She gave me 2 lyrics within a couple of days of the competition being open -and the first -because it was so close to 'Jolene' in all aspects (right down to metre of words ) was difficult to move away at all from Jolene..Surface Of The Moon (as well as being an excellent lyric ) still followed the basic structure n rhyme scheme of Jolene-but gave me much more space to find a tune away from Dollys..I really appreciated that the adjustments n tweaks she made -once the basic tune was established -was as much to do with making sure the lyric sung as well as it could -and not just because of meaning..

I really enjoyed all the songs here -and was amazed how cool n interesting n varied they all were ..Even tho there were alot of songs very close for me quality-wise , my top vote went to ' Tin Man'..A good lyric and such a creative,interesting n quirky tune...

Really enjoyed this competition..THanx to Len for the idea and running it so well too..

[scubed]

Oh, for heaven's sake - how much more plainly can I put this? All I'm saying is, if the contest is based on a challenge, the scoring instructions should say that voters should (as opposed to "may") consider how the teams responded to the challenge in soring the songs. I'm hardly suggesting that anyone be disqualified or that there be a second vote in this competition.

Len, I'm sorry my comments have made this less fun for you. I remain grateful that you agreed to keep this contest going. The contest became less fun for me when I read posts during the contest period that seemed to be completely blowing off the basic concept of the challenge you presented. I like challenges, and I thought this was a clever one (at least as I understood it).

[neuroron]

I think scaffolding is a very good technique to have in your arsenal. Where it applies most is in the case of lyricists that don't write music, to be sure that at least your lyric can match up with a melody (Squeeze is one of the cases I know of where that is the usual starting point for a song). One of the KEY POINTS of "real world" scaffolding is that the tunesmith should be unaware of the original model song so that said original tune doesn't restrict the compositional process. S/he then takes that song and sets it to music - the words-music fitting is then usually an iterative-reiterative process where the ultimate goal is the best song. Even as with the same starting DNA, the environment can dramatically alter it's ultimate transcription and translation - OR, given a starting building scaffold the ultimate exterior can have multiple and various appendages, shapes, colors and textures.

Also, if you listen to all the songs in this set, to me it seems clear they do have acommon thread that ties them together - they would fit together on an album.

In a way the instructions for this contest were like one of those gimmick tests with 40.items. Item #1 says: First read all the items. The next 38 items are a bunch of detailed tasks. The item #40 says "Please disregard items #2-39, sign your name and turn the test in." and you see people doing all the tasks #2-39...

For me, the "Item #40" equivalent was:

Quote

D ) Edit. Adjust your new words and melody to fit your newly established mood. Rewrite as necessary.

What remains is a new song with only a hint of the “ghost” song that acted as a scaffold for the process.

For us, "Jolene" was clearly the DNA of the song and the point of our entry - I think if you read the end where we "showed our work" as it were, that is made abundantly clear. To me, the point of the Collaboration Contest in general - is to produce collaborations that generate songs that would not have existed otherwise and perhaps generate skills that would not have been developed or refined. In the end, it's all about the song, not the lyrics, not the music, but whether you create a viable, beautiful new entity. This also IMHO should be a labor of love, fun and enjoyable. If you are happy with your efforts and product, that should be sufficient. It's always a grin to watch the sniping in some of these contests - I think that can get really big when the stakes are really small

Anyhow, I do enjoy the repartee during and afterwards and echo Alistair's sentiments entirely. In no way do I interpret Sharon's comments as sniping but very valid points for discussion and debate - and for me that is in and of itself enjoyable!! - Ron

[Len]

Sharon, I'm grateful for the hard work that you and the other teams also put in. The work you all put in is much more than mine

But it seems that your premise is the scoring must be based on the challenge. I disagree. I believe that teams can follow an exercise without it being part of scoring.

[scubed]

Len, at least we now understand what we're disagreeing about - I'd call that progress!

Ron, I'll be watching out for those trick questions from now on.

[Dottie]

Hi Folks,

I didn’t participate in this contest because honestly I just didn’t have time but I would have been disappointed if I had written a lyric to fit the song Jolene and others didn’t and it wasn’t taken into consideration when voting. I understand that it was decided later that it didn’t have to be like Jolene but like Sharon I think that should have been understood by everyone before the writing began. Perhaps you could have just said if you’re stuck you can use Jolene to build off of and made it a suggestion rather than a challenge. I once received a 0 or a 1 in a contest because I rhymed choir with flower and someone didn’t hear it as a rhyme. The scores in a lyric contest are always based on the challenge if there is one otherwise it’s not a challenge it’s a suggestion. I’m so sorry to add to the confusion here Len but I felt I had to share my thoughts, enough about that.

I scored both ways lol (based on Jolene and just best song) because I wasn’t sure how to score. I’m pretty sure that I initially I had Jonie and Steve in 1st place (scored as best song) but I lost my scores and deleted all my inbox so I’m not positive. I say initially because I had Kim and Sharon tied with someone in 2nd place I think (scored as closes to Jolene) but after I finished voting closed out of Muse, went in the kitchen and started washing dishes, I realized that the melody for Broken was still playing in my head. It wasn’t the last song I heard either (least I don’t think it was) so I came back and asked Len to change my vote and give 1st place to Kim and Sharon. I decided that it had my high vote no matter which way I was voting, which I was very happy about since I wasn’t sure how to vote!

I’m really sorry but I’m not even sure I had Jonie and Steve in 1st place initially I only remember Kim and Sharon because I changed my vote. If Len wants to go to the trouble to find and post my votes he’s more than welcome to do so. I thought I’d saved them in my documents but I didn’t.

I love all Muses contests, it’s what I enjoy most here so I sure hope we don’t have any hurt feelings or lose any participation. I also love a challenge it makes me think of things I wouldn’t have thought of otherwise but in closing I think it's a good idea to score and require scores to be based on the challenge.

Dottie

[Len]

Thanks for your thoughts Dottie. Your comment about choir and flower illustrates the problem about conditions well. Take accents into account and what is a rhyme?

I can forward your scores to you.

I do challenge the statements that the conditions changed later. The original conditions and the further clarification including the voting guidance were both posted on the same day, the 18th Feb. The conditions did not change but I can't say the same about people's interpretation. Please vote as you see fit. Not sure I could have made it any clearer.

But I don't want to be rebutting criticisms all day. Sorry folks, I'll duck out from here.

[daddio]

I actually thought everything was pretty clear from the start. Scaffolding doesn't mean you write a clone, it means you use that song as a starting point. As Ron pointed out, once you write and rewrite, things will change. Several people have talked about structure but there are many elements to a song and structure is just a part like the other parts. I felt that all the songs had a relationship with Jolene, I could see that. I didn't think there was any directive about voting for the one that hewed the closest. I didn't get that as the definition of scaffolding.
I'm glad Len took over this comp and kept it running. It's one of my favorites and the one I've participated in the most. As he pointed out, there are always many questions about the challenge whatever it may be. Those questions bring on more questions and in the end some good songs get written and that's the real objective.

[Joan]

The next song I post, or enter in something, will be a scaffold song. You know how you can find the lyrics to just about any released song somewhere on the Web? I checked out a "100 Best of 2011" list and chose one at random. The only thing that mattered is that I'd never heard the song before. So I googled the title for the lyric, found it, and wrote a melody for it. Now I'm writing the words. It'll be a little shorter than what I got it from, and the bridge will have a different number of lines. But it's a true scaffold song, in that it wouldn't exist but for the original. I don't write songs very often and am trying to get out of a pretty long drought. When you can write absolutely anything, any way you like, and every possibility is open, you can waste a lot of time wandering around. Scaffolding shuts off a lot of ways, and lets you focus on the ones that remain open. It's a tool meant to trick you out of your block if you're in one, and offers a structure that has succeeded at least once in the past.

Besides fun, the only real point of the special comps is to introduce tools that might be new to us. I missed the "Axis of Awesome" comp but have been checking it out on my own recently. One direct result is the bit of I-V-vi-IV in the verses of Petals of the Rose. That progression turns out to be at least as elastic as the Dog Genome. It worries me that at some point I might get dinged for plagiarizing something I've never even heard before, but Country Roads sounds nothing like I'm Yours, or like Someone Like You. It's a template for tunes that the ear loves. Though I didn't participate in that comp, that comp introduced me to the concept. This comp gave back the calluses to my fingertips. Thank you, Len.

[Scotto]

Wow thanks so much Scenes! That means a lot to me. You consistently put out a descent song, and it is something I strive for so that's pretty cool.

As to these "structured" contests please don't stop doing them. It was an awesome exercise and I really enjoyed it. Now that it is over I've been listening to Jolene again too! I probably wouldn't have sought it out otherwise.

[Dottie]

Sorry Len, I should not have said that anything changed I didn’t read everything since I didn’t participate. I just read write a new lyric to Jolene and pass it to the musician. I didn’t mean to offend you; I have a great deal of respect for you. I think it was mighty nice of you to pick this up and carry it through. Please accept my apology for saying you changed something. It clearly says “I won’t force any conditions”. I suppose I thought writing a new lyric to Jolene was a condition. So there you have it, I THOUGHT that’s always scary.

Thank you for sending me my scores!

I forgot to say congrats to the winners sorry.
Congrats to Jonie and Steve for taking home the gold!
Congrats to AlistairS and Neuroron for 2nd place!

In 1st place I had Jonie and Scenes from Palacio which I wanted to change when I realized the melody for Broken was still paying in my head. Sorry Jonie and Steve I definitely think you have a great tune.

I had a 2 way tie for 2nd Kim and Scubed and AlistairS and Neuroron

I had a 2 way tie for 3rd place also; Graybeard and AMereHobbyist and Starsinmyeyes and Scotto

I think everyone who has the courage to take on a collab contest is a winner, I’m usually afraid I’ll let someone down.

Dottie

[bernabby]

Len, on 26 March 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:

bernabby, on 26 March 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

Len, on 26 March 2012 - 12:32 AM, said:

Being candid, and with apologies to all lyricists, but these contests are usually won by the best musicians...And, just who would these be? Really inspires the "lesser" musicians don't you think? Does a comment like this really help promote participation in these contests?

If that is the intended result I appreciate your candidness...

Not intent, observation.

If you didn't like the criteria, why did you vote?

I didn't say I didn't like the criteria I said I was confused about the voting instructions. If you felt that I shouldn't have voted then please remove my votes and recalculate the scores. Should I also be exempt from discussions on this thread? I am offended that you would call me out just because I voiced a comment about not fully understanding the voting process.

[neuroron]

bernabby, on 26 March 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

Len, on 26 March 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:

bernabby, on 26 March 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

Len, on 26 March 2012 - 12:32 AM, said:

Being candid, and with apologies to all lyricists, but these contests are usually won by the best musicians...And, just who would these be? Really inspires the "lesser" musicians don't you think? Does a comment like this really help promote participation in these contests?

If that is the intended result I appreciate your candidness...

Not intent, observation.

If you didn't like the criteria, why did you vote?

I didn't say I didn't like the criteria I said I was confused about the voting instructions. If you felt that I shouldn't have voted then please remove my votes and recalculate the scores. Should I also be exempt from discussions on this thread? I am offended that you would call me out just because I voiced a comment about not fully understanding the voting process.

I think it's great when anybody not participating in the contest votes - those votes are more important than the participants IMHO, because it is really impossible for the participants to be truly objective. It's also certainly more than reasonable to discuss the criteria - but ultimately the feedback for the participants that is most valuable is what you felt and why. It takes a lot of (unrewarded) effort to listen to contest entries and evaluate them and I'm sure everyone is grateful you did. Please don't let the post-game banter dissuade you from doing so again or fully jumping in again as a participant. I think as a non-performing/recording lyricist these contests are invaluable chances to actively collaborate and hear your lyric fleshed out into a full song and further your craft - Ron

[MrFitz]

neuroron, on 27 March 2012 - 01:05 AM, said:

I think it's great when anybody not participating in the contest votes - those votes are more important than the participants IMHO, because it is really impossible for the participants to be truly objective. It's also certainly more than reasonable to discuss the criteria - but ultimately the feedback for the participants that is most valuable is what you felt and why. It takes a lot of (unrewarded) effort to listen to contest entries and evaluate them and I'm sure everyone is grateful you did. Please don't let the post-game banter dissuade you from doing so again or fully jumping in again as a participant. I think as a non-performing/recording lyricist these contests are invaluable chances to actively collaborate and hear your lyric fleshed out into a full song and further your craft - Ron

Well put Ron. though I may perform (trying to get more regularly tho) I am unconfident with arrangement and recording and this competition is fantastic at helping me gain those skills as well as seeing what awesome things can be done with my lyrics!

I always try to either take part or vote. Its vital to make these things a worthy contest. At the end of the day Len said it was up to you how you wanted to vote, you choose your own criteria I would of thought that would of made it more open for more people to vote as they are not constricted to criteria they may not agree with but obviously that isnt the case.

Was a good contest, I enjoyed, I met a new collaborator who I hope to work with again, wrote a good song, happy with end result = success. Votes - added bonus

[graybeard]

Thanks Len for running the contest and congratulations to the winners.
I enjoyed listening to all of the songs submitted,not a bad one in the bunch. Good job by all the teams.
A special thanks to Frank (AMereHobbyist)for putting the finishing touches on the lyric I submitted.
I appreciate the fine job he did.

Peace,
Nathan

[kimberlyinnc]

I wanna take a moment to offer my congrats to---

Jonie and Scenes for their first place
Alistair and Ron for 2nd
and Mr. Fitz and Joan for 3rd..
There were some very nice songs to come out of this contest and that is something we can all be proud of.



My first choice in the contest was...
Mr Fitz and Joan as 1st place. I felt it was closer to the Jolene Scaffold which I understood we were to try to base our song structure on and I also liked the lyrics and sound
my 2nd was Jonie and Scenes
and 3rd choice was Stars and Scotto

Not to beat a dead and buried horse...but...
I also mis-understood the contest, as in the beginning it seemed to be in my mind, a scaffold song to be using the same structure entirely, then once I had or was working on the lyric, or when I noticed some were saying, theirs would be DISTANT cousins, I started questioning myself and wondering if I had mis-understood something. I became confused, but that is not anyone's specific fault. I should have asked more questions.

I do feel, my humble opinion, if a song contest is done and there's some criteria set for it, but it turns out to communicated at any point... "well...you can do that or not, up to you, you can use that criteria to vote OR not" it can lead to confusion for all involved, and the voters.

I realize the person running the contests is just trying to please everyone and that is impossible. I just feel if a criteria is set, it should be part of the voting/scoring and something every person that participates should try to follow. But I am not wanting for anyone and most esp. Len to feel unappreciated, but I am just stating my thoughts as others have. This is not sour grapes, had we won, I would still be stating I found it a little confusing..but that is said and done...and most importantly...
I want to thank Len for doing the contest, and putting up with us all, I am glad it was held and I enjoyed working with Sharon, it was our first collaboration We almost didn't get the collaboration contest this spring and thanks to Len for stepping up and making it happen.



Kimberly

[Joan]

Some people need everything in a room to be tidy, all objects in their designated place, and feel physical unease even if the countertops are gleaming, if there's a cup and spoon in the sink. Others couldn't care less if there's a pile of bills and flyers cluttering up the dining room table, laundry hanging off the treadmill, dust bunnies under the coffee table.

As songwriters we probably all feel both of these ways (or a happy median in-between), just about different things at different times. Some people by nature, in maybe a hard-wired way, are very comfortable with ambiguity and others will be unhappy if there's anything not locked down. Some people fret about every near rhyme and don't even notice the hiss in the recording. We all have our inner rock god and our inner copy editor, and sometimes one of them has to forcefully pry the other's fingers off the steering wheel. A comp that takes place squarely within our comfort zone will give us an edge in that comp. But a comp that leads us away from comfortable and forces us to be creative and confused at the same time is probably better for our writing. When we have to explore discomfort we find treasures we would never have seen otherwise. This comp catered to both comfort levels: It let us choose during the writing whether to adhere strictly or wander off. Then it let us choose the same thing all over again for one another's songs during voting. It was clear enough for the strict interpreters while flexible enough for the freewheeling interpreters.