PRE-CHORUS
#1
Posted 25 January 2012 - 02:54 PM
More and more lyric posters seem to be using this sectional label.
But what’s the point of it?
What does it mean?
"It is the best of all trades to make songs...
and the second best to sing them"
Hillaire Belloc
“SONG is the joint art of words and music, two arts under emotional pressure coalescing into a third.
The relation and balance of the two arts is a problem that has to be resolved anew in every song that is composed.”
The Encyclopedia Britannica
#2
Posted 25 January 2012 - 03:13 PM
94% of modern country songs are:
Verse
Channel
Chorus/hook
Verse
channel
chorus/hook
bridge
chorus/hook
out
MAB
#3
Posted 25 January 2012 - 03:41 PM
MABBO said:
Exactly.
It is a musical event.
A normal regular everyday turnaround in the second ending.
So why would a lyricist hoping to attract a composer presume to dictate a musical event?
"It is the best of all trades to make songs...
and the second best to sing them"
Hillaire Belloc
“SONG is the joint art of words and music, two arts under emotional pressure coalescing into a third.
The relation and balance of the two arts is a problem that has to be resolved anew in every song that is composed.”
The Encyclopedia Britannica
#4
Posted 25 January 2012 - 03:53 PM
Mind you, I don't bother labeling anything when I write. However, for some reason, I do add labels when I post to sites like these (sometimes, anyway).
Shouldn't the lyrical structure be implicit and detectable, anyway?
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#5
Posted 25 January 2012 - 05:04 PM
Alistair S said:
I also subscribe to that perspective - especially if you want a collaborator to have room to breathe.
I also believe we should be thinking bars, not lines.
"It is the best of all trades to make songs...
and the second best to sing them"
Hillaire Belloc
“SONG is the joint art of words and music, two arts under emotional pressure coalescing into a third.
The relation and balance of the two arts is a problem that has to be resolved anew in every song that is composed.”
The Encyclopedia Britannica
#6
Posted 25 January 2012 - 05:52 PM
- They directly precede the chorus.
- They usually precede each chorus, but may be dropped after the first couple of times if you can find a way (musically) to get back to the chorus without it. In that case there's usually a bridge to perform that function between the second and third choruses.
- Lyrics can be the same each time or different. In fact, consider the option of a pre-chorus if you need more than one verse of lyric--but don't need enough lyric for two verses--to set up the chorus lyrically.
- Melodies are the same each time.
- The length varies, like the bridge, from one lyric line to four. Pre-choruses usually last no longer than eight bars.
- Their major function is melodic and dynamic--to build tension to increase the feeling of release in the chorus.
This book emphasizes writing commercially viable songs for radio. The structure MAB posted above, along with some variations, is now a common form in modern song, particularly useful for "up-tempo songs where the three segments go by quickly; but it's also successful in ballads and mid-tempo songs."
#7
Posted 25 January 2012 - 09:59 PM
In other words, who cares how the lyric is labelled? If the lyricist wants to indicate where they hear the lift begin, what does it matter?
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Currently on the lookout for country lyrics in the style of Keith Urban, Brad Paisley, Lady Antebellum, Zac Brown or any other crossover type artist. Not interested in traditional country.
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#8
Posted 25 January 2012 - 10:21 PM
Salley Gardens said:
Thanks, Salley.
I haven't read or seen that book before.
My curiosity about the term has led me to similar descriptions already.
But - whenever I have pressed anyone to provide a scored example, it has always been, in practice, the second ending and nothing more.
Do you happen to know of an instance for me where this is not the case?
Does anyone?
"It is the best of all trades to make songs...
and the second best to sing them"
Hillaire Belloc
“SONG is the joint art of words and music, two arts under emotional pressure coalescing into a third.
The relation and balance of the two arts is a problem that has to be resolved anew in every song that is composed.”
The Encyclopedia Britannica
#9
Posted 25 January 2012 - 10:42 PM
As to how/why a lyricist would dictate a pre-chorus, I'm not sure. I've never considered a pre-chorus as being a lyrical event since it has always felt to me as something specific to the music.
But I have noticed some ambiguity in lyrical notation (particularly on the web) when it comes to a pre-chorus, i.e., sometimes noted as a "lift", "step up", or not noted at all, etc.
This topic is timely for me as I've been recently spending time listening and trying to find pre-choruses in songs that I really like to get a better feel for how to create them in my own music. I would love to write a song with an effective pre-chorus!
#10
Posted 25 January 2012 - 10:52 PM
Lazz, on 25 January 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:
But - whenever I have pressed anyone to provide a scored example, it has always been, in practice, the second ending and nothing more.
Do you happen to know of an instance for me where this is not the case?
Does anyone?
I don't know if these will be helpful... here is what my book lists as examples of pre-choruses used in a variety of ways:
Shania Twain's Any Man of Mine (R.J. "Mutt" Lange, S. Twain);
All-4-One or John Michael Montgomery's I Can Love You Like That (S. Diamond, Jl. Kimball, M. Derry);
Sheryl Crow's Every Day is a Winding Road (S. Crow, J. Trott, B. MacLeod);
Faith Hill's Like We Never Loved t All (S. Sacks, J. Rich, V. McGehee);
All-American Rejects' Dirty Little Secrets (T. Ritter, N. Wheeler);
Natasha Bedingfield's Unwritten (N. Beddingfield, D. Vrisebois, W. Rodrigues)
I have no idea if any of these are not the case!
#11
Posted 25 January 2012 - 11:36 PM
Alistair S, on 25 January 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:
Mind you, I don't bother labeling anything when I write. However, for some reason, I do add labels when I post to sites like these (sometimes, anyway).
Shouldn't the lyrical structure be implicit and detectable, anyway?
When Mike Taub (aka Mystery Mike) gave me these lyrics back in 2005, there were no song parts indicated anywhere on his lyric sheet.
As I read the 2nd 4 lines, I sensed a difference and wanted to musically define it.
The only thing that changed in the collaboration was the name of the song, having been titled "Making Sense Of It All" originally.
It's the only song that I've ever written with a pre-chorus or however you want to define it.
Each section of the song is defined below.
Trying To Make Sense Of It All
words by Michael Taub - music by Dan Depolito - vocal by Myles Loud - © 2005
V1
My mind starts to wander since were apart
Visions arise that I just cant chart
A gaping hole exists inside of my heart
Try to do things but I just cant start
Pre-Ch
I can hear your words when theres no sound
I can see your face, when theres not a soul around
I can taste your lips but it just cant be
I can smell your hair, when youre not next to me
Ch
And Im sensing this is just how it feels
Yeah Im sensing now that our love was real.
V2
The days are long without you here
I trudge on but my paths so unclear
Life all alone brings on more fear
Is it wrong that I cant, can't shed tear?
Br
I try not to blame you
But its so hard, you know.
Why did you leave me?
Was it your time to go?
No, it wasnt your fault
That you got the call
But my pain still grows
Trying to make sense of it all.
V3
The years just pass as they often do
My lifeless eyes have seen me through
The happy times are far and few
Still counting the days, till Im back with you
Pre-Ch
I can hear your words when theres no sound
I can see your face, when theres not a soul around
I can taste your lips but it just cant be
I can smell your hair, when youre not next to me
Ch
And Im sensing this is just how it feels
Yeah Im sensing now that our love was real.
can only be measured by
the integrity of yourself and the friends
that take the trip with you."
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#12
Posted 26 January 2012 - 12:13 AM
Generally speaking a pre chorus would look different even on paper than the meter of the verses, and the chorus. That makes a lyricist
think that this will give a clear path for the melody writer to put it into three distinctive parts, the verse, the prechorus and the chorus.
Taking the musical hat off for a minute, i can see why a lyricist labels it, because they are trying to articulate music when they can only speak in words.
It's basically road mapping the most common structure verse, pre chorus, and chorus, and a lyricst thinks that if they create three different
lyrical parts, that this will equate to three different musical parts. Sometimes it can, but I think it's one reason that people who write lyrics first
or lyrics only, rarely write anything great.
It's easy to write colorful, engaging lyrics when u dont have to constrain them into a entertaining piece of music. That is the real challenge of
pop songwriting in particular..... How do I sing what I want to say, and how do I say it all in 3 minutes.
In short the lyricist believes they are helping the musician create sections.
#13
Posted 26 January 2012 - 12:57 AM
Quote
In other words, who cares how the lyric is labelled? If the lyricist wants to indicate where they hear the lift begin, what does it matter?
Thank you Mark.
Kimberly
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#14
Posted 26 January 2012 - 01:27 AM
Labeling communicates a lyricists intent, I agree.
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#15
Posted 26 January 2012 - 01:44 AM
Alistair%20S, on 26 January 2012 - 01:27 AM, said:
Labeling communicates a lyricists intent, I agree.
Technically, no line has to match anything, it's not a poem it's a song. That is why when lyricists try to stick
to accepted formats they can become cookie cutter, and even sacrifice what they really want to say just to "fit the suit"
But I guess, lyric forums are built around the cookie cutter forms, because they are universal everybody knows them. it's a favorite crit conversation piece.
I kind of look at it like, it the last line doesnt match, maybe the first three lines dont match the last!
But when it;s the last line thats different, it;s almost obvious something is supposed to be different there.
#16
Posted 26 January 2012 - 02:48 AM
Salley Gardens said:
Thanks. Salley.
Haven’t heard ANY of those, so I have no idea either.
I’ll try and check them out.
obcbeatle said:
Oh yeah!
I am familiar with this one.
Carole King with a gospel cadence.
And a great example of the emotional effect of a ‘lift’ in music.
But why call it a pre-chorus?
And why even call the subsequent two bars a chorus?
The structure for Natural Woman is just a simple A-A-B that uses a groovy 2-bar refrain.
There is no chorus.
obcbeatle said:
Sorry if this is too personal a question, but do you not get along with your uncle?
He could sort you out on that stuff within a couple of hours.
"It is the best of all trades to make songs...
and the second best to sing them"
Hillaire Belloc
“SONG is the joint art of words and music, two arts under emotional pressure coalescing into a third.
The relation and balance of the two arts is a problem that has to be resolved anew in every song that is composed.”
The Encyclopedia Britannica
#17
Posted 26 January 2012 - 12:16 PM
Alistair S, on 26 January 2012 - 01:27 AM, said:
I find it hard to believe you've never commented on a lyric's meter or other by-product of it's syllable count. In the absence of music, a lyric has to provide it's own rhythm.
Singer/Songwriter
Composer
Currently on the lookout for country lyrics in the style of Keith Urban, Brad Paisley, Lady Antebellum, Zac Brown or any other crossover type artist. Not interested in traditional country.
Always on the lookout for great lyrics in general too :)
#18
Posted 26 January 2012 - 12:55 PM
Lazz, on 26 January 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:
And why even call the subsequent two bars a chorus?
The structure for Natural Woman is just a simple A-A-B that uses a groovy 2-bar refrain.
There is no chorus.
My book clearly states each section is about differing melodic statements, and use of pre-choruses is a (relatively) new song form that has an additional contrasting melodic statement: A-B-C.
#19
Posted 26 January 2012 - 02:30 PM
Lazz, on 26 January 2012 - 01:48 AM, said:
Carole King with a gospel cadence.
And a great example of the emotional effect of a ‘lift’ in music.
But why call it a pre-chorus?
And why even call the subsequent two bars a chorus?
The structure for Natural Woman is just aer than simple A-A-B that uses a groovy 2-bar refrain.
There is no chorus.
The repeated line modern chorus is just an evolution of the refrain line, and so often the distinction in particular cases is arbitrary - I think the critical thing, on what terminology to apply, is whether it feels like a separate section rather than part of the verse. I guess the same is true for a pre-chorus. In Natural Woman that part certainly feels like a separate section to me.
#20
Posted 26 January 2012 - 02:36 PM
FunkDaddy, on 26 January 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:
Alistair S, on 26 January 2012 - 01:27 AM, said:
I find it hard to believe you've never commented on a lyric's meter or other by-product of it's syllable count. In the absence of music, a lyric has to provide it's own rhythm.
I think a critical point is that LYRICs, like music and prose do not have lines, they have phrases, and like the latter they have sentences.
POEMs have lines, which are strictly a function of their visual presentation. Lyrics do not exist on paper, only in the auditory context of a song - on paper they are something else. It sounds like I'm picking nits, but I think it is conecptually important.
#21
Posted 26 January 2012 - 02:59 PM
FunkDaddy, on 26 January 2012 - 05:16 PM, said:
Alistair S, on 26 January 2012 - 01:27 AM, said:
I find it hard to believe you've never commented on a lyric's meter or other by-product of it's syllable count. In the absence of music, a lyric has to provide it's own rhythm.
Meter is important in that two verses need to be consistent (and sometimes lines/phrases within verses also need to be). Two lines/phrases tagged at the end of a verse don't need to be the same as the 4 that came before, though. Why should they?
When grandmama whose age is eighty
In night clubs is getting matey
With gigolos,
Anything goes.
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#22
Posted 26 January 2012 - 04:17 PM
intro
v1
pc
c
v2
c
b
c
c
outro
Has anyone ever seen/heard a song that fits that format? Not that it has to, because it works really well, I guess I want to know if I'm at least hitting in some ballpark.
Thanks,
Rednaj
#23
Posted 26 January 2012 - 04:21 PM
Lazz, on 26 January 2012 - 02:48 AM, said:
obcbeatle said:
Oh yeah!
I am familiar with this one.
Carole King with a gospel cadence.
And a great example of the emotional effect of a ‘lift’ in music.
But why call it a pre-chorus?
And why even call the subsequent two bars a chorus?
The structure for Natural Woman is just a simple A-A-B that uses a groovy 2-bar refrain.
There is no chorus.
<<< I see what you mean. Natural Woman being an AAB song, there IS no chorus. I think a lift/pre-chorus... is something that is VERY effective musically when used properly. And as a song writer something to certainly to be aware of as an opportunity.
obcbeatle said:
Sorry if this is too personal a question, but do you not get along with your uncle?
He could sort you out on that stuff within a couple of hours.
<<< I get along fine with my uncle. But I'm not sure ANYONE can sort ME out on some aspects of musical theory, even in two hours ;-)
#24
Posted 27 January 2012 - 12:43 AM
Rednaj, on 26 January 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:
intro
v1
pc
c
v2
c
b
c
c
outro
Has anyone ever seen/heard a song that fits that format? Not that it has to, because it works really well, I guess I want to know if I'm at least hitting in some ballpark.
Thanks,
Rednaj
The point is that song forms are arbitrary--they're just something that somebody made up. If they keep listeners interested they get copied until something else comes along. Study the history, back to the middle ages--consider the rondeau--and maybe even try writing one, just as an exercise.
#25
Posted 27 January 2012 - 04:19 AM
Rednaj, on 26 January 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:
I'm sure there are quite a few songs that only have one pre-chorus. One that springs to mind is Schools Out - Alice Cooper - the pre-chorus is the bit that goes "Well we can't salute ya, can't find a flag"
#26
Posted 27 January 2012 - 08:48 AM
Quote
to accepted formats they can become cookie cutter, and even sacrifice what they really want to say just to "fit the suit"
Totally.....and maybe music writers risk being cookie cutter too if they're rigidly trying to follow a pre-described formula like that..
Surely it makes for much more interesting ,creative songs if writers can be more fluid and open in their thinking than being chained to something like that- which is only one of hundreds of songwriting devices open to you to use intuitively..
#27
Posted 27 January 2012 - 10:04 AM
If I write the lyrics first or someone wants me to add music to lyrics, I will try to add music that will make the journey along with the story, so pre-choruses and such may not be apart of the landscape. Although, if there is a line or two that turn the story or set up the chorus, ill add a chord or two that may enhance what emotion the vocal/lyric is conveying. The change can also be rhythmic. Although they should, reading lyrics alone may not convey the passion that the writer suggests or these rises and falls that need to accompany it musically.
If I write the music first, it seems to be easier because the rises and falls of a prechorus are outlined, you should be able to hear the rises and falls musically.
Having a prechorus, my no means for me, is not a requirement. It can have great value though
porcupine
#5 song on Onstage.com's Open for Bon Jovi in May of 2010 "Turn It Down"
recorded and produced songs with several grammy winners and nominees
songs writen have been recorded by The Standard, Wooden Nickel, Jody Stapler and Prototype
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#28
Posted 01 February 2012 - 10:53 AM
There are times, primarily in rock and alternative, where it works just fine. The artists are known for different types of approaches. In country, it is putting a square peg in a round hole. People listen to music mostly to find something they know. Sort of like "comfort food for the soul." you don't find a lot of divergence in the format structure wise. What you do find differently is subject matter and approach on any particular subject. Show don't tell" giving the visuals, conversational tone, giving the listener a connection with the singer, and a melodic hook that is memorable and they can instantly remember and want to hear it again, are the hallmarks of what most country writers do.
Even in people like Eric Church, Jamie Johnson, and others who many claim are on the "outside" of the format, actually still use the format. They bend rules around the inside of the format and make it work for them in their approach.
Again, when you get into hearing hundreds and sometimes thousands of songs over a period of time, you tend to tune a lot of things out that don't really fit the format. Most of them are trying to be different for the sake of being different, and that is not always a good thing. Many murderers and assasins are different too. Different is not always a good thing.
I would say it is about trying to stick to certain patterns but finding things inside that pattern that can set you apart. Pre-choruses are one element of that.
MAB
#29
Posted 01 February 2012 - 11:54 AM
MABBO, on 01 February 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:
MAB
nice quote! laced with grace as always MAB!
porcupine
#5 song on Onstage.com's Open for Bon Jovi in May of 2010 "Turn It Down"
recorded and produced songs with several grammy winners and nominees
songs writen have been recorded by The Standard, Wooden Nickel, Jody Stapler and Prototype
see more of my music at charlieeschbach.com
#30
Posted 01 February 2012 - 12:26 PM
#31
Posted 01 February 2012 - 01:05 PM
If the verse is very short and sounds like the chorus comes up really quickly and disjointed, this gives it a springboard into the chorus
The verse chord progression consists of a melody that’s similar to the chorus.
The verse’s last note needs to evolve to a much higher note at the start of the chorus.
It made me go back and see how and where I used it, so hope it helps
P
#5 song on Onstage.com's Open for Bon Jovi in May of 2010 "Turn It Down"
recorded and produced songs with several grammy winners and nominees
songs writen have been recorded by The Standard, Wooden Nickel, Jody Stapler and Prototype
see more of my music at charlieeschbach.com
#32
Posted 03 February 2012 - 03:39 PM
Lazz, on 25 January 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:
MABBO said:
Exactly.
It is a musical event.
A normal regular everyday turnaround in the second ending.
So why would a lyricist hoping to attract a composer presume to dictate a musical event?
I appreciate that point of view. I often feel the converse as well though, why would I as a composer presume to dictate a change in the fundtamental structure created by a lyricist? I tread very lightly at first with a new collaboration, and I like knowing from the beginning that we have a similar or at least compatible vision for a song. Talking about sections is part of that process to me - so just as my own personal preference I like seeing them in the lyrics even if I might disagree or want to change them later. I do move things around, but I try to talk about things like that early on. Again I suppose different teams have different ways of working, but I want any collaborator to feel that "Yesssss!!" moment that the music expresses exactly what they were feeling.
#33
Posted 12 February 2012 - 12:37 AM
Which got me thinking of Faith Hill's "Like We Never Loved At All" and I thought there isn't a pre-chorus! And it doesn't sound like one but rather that the last few lines have been altered with a melody suited to a rise.
#34
Posted 12 February 2012 - 08:52 AM
klo, on 12 February 2012 - 05:37 AM, said:
*cough" .. Scot Sax, John Rich and Vicky McGhee's "Like We Never Loved At All"
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#36
Posted 14 February 2012 - 08:51 AM
MABBO, on 25 January 2012 - 03:13 PM, said:
Verse
Channel
Chorus/hook
Verse
channel
chorus/hook
bridge
chorus/hook
out
MAB
Its funny reading about the definite construction rules you basically have to follow in country to be succesful..
A brilliant song like 'Love Letters' for instance - which i've always assumed to be basically 'country' -follows none of those rules..Is suprising,inventive,moody and follows its own logic..
Why can't some modern nashville songs do musical things like that..Be chromatic and abit strange n left of centre ?
Wouldn't a modern country audience appreciate a song like that if it was written now..?
#37
Posted 14 February 2012 - 10:36 AM
I-vi-IV-V
What would the lift be?
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#38
Posted 14 February 2012 - 01:27 PM
The Cracks, on 14 February 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:
I-vi-IV-V
What would the lift be?
F/ D bass - - C - - G/B bass - - F/ D bass - - C - - G
Then you could start the Chorus with a IV or F chord.
can only be measured by
the integrity of yourself and the friends
that take the trip with you."
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here is my Soundclick page,
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here is my Facebook page,
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and here is the rest.
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#39
Posted 14 February 2012 - 06:45 PM
The Cracks, on 14 February 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:
I-vi-IV-V
What would the lift be?
Assuming the Verse chords were one bar apiece, a typical lift might be: IV | IV | V | V7
or you could use 4 bars of the IV then the 4 of the V - which is a simplified form of what Danny had.
#40
Posted 15 February 2012 - 08:34 AM
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#41
Posted 19 February 2012 - 08:12 PM
#42
Posted 26 February 2012 - 09:24 PM
I know, pre-chorus seems to be a new phenomenon in writers speak. I guess its the lines that are different melodically from the last line being the eventual hook or chorus. Or maybe its the minny bridge, but because its being repeated before the eventual hook line, its referred to as a pre-chorus. I think I'm guilty of the that too.
regards
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#43
Posted 26 February 2012 - 10:04 PM
A good musician will recognize them for what they are, without needing an arrow pointed to them.
I can't ever remember using one or at least, not needing to spell it out for the musician.
If a rise is needed to lead into a chorus, a musician will find a way to develop one with the lines provided. For a lyricist, it's probably best to wait for a musician's input into whether or not one is needed or welcome.
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#44
Posted 27 February 2012 - 07:15 PM
The term "Lift" usually comes from Broadway in the theater, where a lyricist and composer would work with a Libretist, who did the dialogue and stage direction used in a play. There would be notes in the "action" of a script, calling for the music to "lift" the action, to another place, increasing the tension in a scene.
The term "Pre-chorus" was used a lot in Los Angeles, and often in the 60's "rock and roll" era.
Nashville has simply used the term "channel" as it builds a "channel" from one part to another, usually the verses to the choruses.
A "bridge" primarily is done from one chorus to another at the end of most contemporary songs.
There are going to be more definitions, but to my knowledge, these are the most common.
MAB
#45
Posted 28 February 2012 - 03:44 PM
MAB

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