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"The Lite" Gmaj 100 4/4 Intro/V/C 5:40

#1 User is offline   ed_shaw Icon

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 02:17 PM

Apologize for the length, too long. Still messing with pans to improve separation.
IN: GG7D7G V:GGGG/CCCG/GGGG/GGd7G Ch: GGGG/CCCG/GGGG/GGD7G VC/VC/X6

"The Lite"

#2 User is offline   DannyDep Icon

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 12:01 AM

Hi Ed,
I don’t know, I was trying to find the melody to the song but I had a hard time trying to find it. :(
You should listen to some of your favorite songs or songwriters and see how they create their melodies.
I would also try to write shorter motifs so that you keep the listener’s interest up.
Composing songs is about creating emotions :rolleyes: and listening is about empathizing with what was written. :rolleyes:
But by all means, have fun. :)
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#3 User is offline   Maurreen Icon

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 11:48 PM

Sorry, but this doesn't seem to go anywhere. For my taste, I need more variation, more of an arc.
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#4 User is offline   Kenneth Bradshaw Icon

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 03:29 PM

Ed,

I like everything you do. Do you realize that this song is in 6/8 time. Whenever you have that shuffling beat and the eight note triplets on the snare drum, you are probably in 6/8 time. I think that is the most fun meter to write for and the funkiest in the country genre.

This is a very good background, but I think you need a collaborater to drop a melody down on top of it. As I listened, I keep hearing Tom T. Hall's song, "I Remember the Year that Clayton Delaney Died". That is a good example of the type of song this would support. Also, listen to some of Loretta Lynn's early work when she is accompanied by a bango in 6/8 time. Those will give you an idea of what to drop on top of this.

If you want to work on your own melody, this is how I would approach it. I would play a broken chord run on top of this with an amplified guitar, making sure that I hit a note of the chord for every beat. I'm pretty sure you are in 6/8 time, played in 2 - so hit the chord with every bass beat and major backbeat. Then fill in between until you have a melody you like.

I think your background has the potential to support a very good song.

Ken

#5 User is offline   ed_shaw Icon

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 12:45 PM

Hey, Danny, Maureen, and Kenneth:
Thanks for listening.
Danny: I am addressing your remarks in my current work, which clearly reproduces
melodies taken directly from the score, and builds the improvisation over those melodies as templates. Bear in mind, I am taking backings I produced for cover
use -- this one happens to be Hank Williams' "I Saw the Light," and
developing the melodic patterns for commercial applications -- not
looking for any Grammy here; save the applause for later. However,
your comment was noted and is right on the mark. Knowing the foundation, I hear melody the casual listener would not. That could become a problem, for me.
Maurreen: Thanks for listening. I'm not sure what an arc is, but you are right about the song goes round and round. This particular series of work is not about emotional interplay or building to a climax or those higher values of music. It's basically an adaptation of a Pentecostal hymn, and, if you know, that's kind of a repetitive chant type music, isn't it? For chord and scale practice or for a background music track in video, it may have some application. That is to say, the editor doesn't have to deal with the music climaxing at the wrong time.
It just kind of rambles along. Thx again.
Kenneth: As always, I appreciate that you slip in a compliment with you remarks. I am encouraged. You may find my current work, once it reaches a point to post a sample, a pleasing departure from this series, but, don't you agree that my foundations are improving, little by little?
Astute of you to note the time signature. I don't have the ear or the training for that, but since you do, your observation is very helpful. When I lay the tracks into the timelines, the wave pulses match the 4/4 grid, provided I select the same BPM, so I naturally assume the pattern is 4/4. The rhythm pattern, incidentally, is computer generated, with designation, sometimes, of 4/4, 3/4 (the just call it Waltz) and 12/8. Interested in a copy of that backing track, sans guitar? Be glad to send you a copy. Everything in this series is "common property." Kind of like that girl in high school we remember.
Band in a Box, my cheapo version at least, doesn't expect the user to be knowledgeable to take it much further than that, and, in my case, they are right.
I know from previous posts you stress the importance of broken chords, a term I had to look up. I took your advice to heart, that was weeks ago, as you will see by the comments I made in response to yours in one of the melody threads, just the other day...that is my Dumbarton Drums notes. In this current series, I am going back and forth between arpeggiated (?) chords and strum rhythms improvised upon those melodies, you know, verse to verse, mixing it up, so on.
Yeah, "I Saw the Light." Loretta covered that.
Thanks again, composers and performers.

#6 User is offline   FunkDaddy Icon

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 06:03 PM

lol A shuffle doesn't mean it's in 6/8 time. Nor do triplet fills on the snare. This is a shuffle in 4/4.

My thoughts for the tune fall in line with Maurreen. There's just not much here to keep my ear into it. The guitar goes off-rhythm way, way too much. Sounds like your delay is added randomly, and not sync'd to the song. I feel like I've made these same comments on your tunes before.

You have to hear how horribly off-rhythm the guitar is around 2:55. Don't you?
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#7 User is offline   Kenneth Bradshaw Icon

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 11:42 PM

View PostFunkDaddy, on 16 January 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

lol A shuffle doesn't mean it's in 6/8 time. Nor do triplet fills on the snare. This is a shuffle in 4/4.

My thoughts for the tune fall in line with Maurreen. There's just not much here to keep my ear into it. The guitar goes off-rhythm way, way too much. Sounds like your delay is added randomly, and not sync'd to the song. I feel like I've made these same comments on your tunes before.

You have to hear how horribly off-rhythm the guitar is around 2:55. Don't you?


It is probably 6/8 time played in 2. If you are indicating that he has his machine set in 4/4, then that 4/4 time that Ed is using would be covering 2 measures. Of course, with effort you can write almost any rhythm in almost any meter. To do so here, however, you would have to write Ed's rhythms as triplets. That's why I said probably. It can be done otherwise, but 6/8 time is to me the natural meter for what Ed has written. Eight notes are easier to score than triplets. But the best indicator is the shuffle which is usually written 1^34^61^34^61. I have not seen that written in anything but 6/8 - but I am sure it could be if someone wanted to put in the effort.

Since you are a drummer, you would be used to this rhythm in marches. A good example is 76 trombones.

Can Ed's tune be written otherwise? Yes, you could write it in 4/4 time with 12 eight note triplets. And I am sure that happens - especially when transcribing early rock and roll, but 6/8 is the most common time signature for this beat.

As to the off-rhythm guitar, I am not bothered by the production quality. But I understand if others are.

There are a lot of rhythmic tricks you can do with 6/8 time. Especially if you want to do the opposite of Frank Sinatra, who always came in a little late on a beat. 6/8 time is a fantastic way to give the beat a surprise push. And that's fun. Also, if you want to mix 3/4 time with a back beat. Then you write it in 6/8 and the 1 beat gets the bass and the 4 beat gets the snare. We hear that all the time - whether we are aware of it or not. We probably think we are hearing 4/4 with a triplet beat. The key is if the melody is following the 6/8 pattern.

Funk, I like your work. But it happens here, I really am speaking from experience. Ken

#8 User is offline   FunkDaddy Icon

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 04:30 AM

I don't understand where you're getting 6/8 time. Triplets are 1-e-a 2-e-a...or...trip-ah-let trip-ah-let. They are counted in multiples of 3. They have nothing to do with determining the time signature. It's in 4/4 and that 4/4 time is covered in 1 measure, not 2. You're thinking because there is points of the song that have a triple feel, you must count in a division of 3? That's simply wrong. A shuffle is not normally written like that mash up of numbers. It's a feel given to the tune. Charts can even just have "Shuffle" written above the time signature with all the eighth notes written straight.

Very simple, the back beat in this song is on 2 and 4, the down beat on 1 and 3. If it was 6/8 the down beat would be on 1, the back beat on 4. The groove is in 4/4. You can count it in 6 because 6 is an even number. You could even break it down to 6/8 time if you wanted, but you'd be counting pretty fast.

We're talking simple vs compound meter. 4/4: each beat divides naturally into two equal parts(this song) vs 6/8: 2 beats divided into 3 equal parts (not this song). I can play eighth note triplets on the hi-hat in 4/4 time, doesn't make the song 6/8 just because the triplets can be counted in 6's.
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#9 User is offline   Kenneth Bradshaw Icon

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 07:20 AM

Pick up the sheet music for 76 trombones. And see how it is written. Then listen to the grove which sounds like it is in 4/4 - but actually it is 6/8 played in 2. You may be confusing 6/8 time with songs like Greensleeves. But a 6/8 in 2 sounds like 4/4 time. Again, the shuffle is the best indicator of 6/8 time - 1^34^61. You will see that if you pick up the sheet music to 76 trombones.

You are right, sometimes a song is written in 4/4 and the composer then gives an indication of a relaxed rhythm by writing shuffle. That is even more common in swing music where at the top of the score the composer will write a quarter note and 2 eights and write "Relax" or "Triplets" above it. Sometimes the composer is just simplifying the score and sometimes the melody is played straight and you are imposing one rhythm on top of another. You would have to look at each individual song.

Remember, I keep saying probably. You can create a shuffle with triplets. It is just not the most natural way to do it. And a good indicator is if the melody shares some of the 6/8 tendencies. If not, then you are right, you are overlaying two different rhythms and that is easier written in 4/4 and just giving the drummer a clue.

Here are three examples of my music written in 6/8 and they feel like 4/4 time with triplets.

You Are My Second
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=6zA29sMzI0M

If Only Roses Could Fly (This uses the pushed beat that I talked about)
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=AaCe9meu7Xk

The third song in this medley, Share This Life With Me, is in 6/8. The verse is scored for a 4/4 feel and the chorus is scored for a waltz rhythm, but the whole song is in 6/8
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=K6yCkeSg2RA

Just to show I like and understand triplets, Nocturne in A Minor is written in 4/4 time and the 3rd movement is all triplets.
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=kYnEFLucUwQ

#10 User is offline   ed_shaw Icon

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 03:12 PM

Thank you very much, Funk Daddy and Kenneth, for those detailed discussion. You two are wonderful musicians. The You Tube references are terrific, Kenneth, thanks for posting them. Naturally, as a folk, country, and hymnal fan, I enjoyed them as well as learned something.

Look, I have to confess I arrived at the backing drum track for "Lite" by mixing a jazz track and a country track, both 4/4 if I am not mistaken, that I had used to cover "I Saw the Light," by Hank. Please do not rule out that I lost track of what I have done and bear in mind my training has not been very extensive.
My Soundcloud has the two trax and the mix.
I have a little trouble telling the two apart, but, according to my files, these are the two Band in a Box Drum Tracks I mixed to get the composite drum track for "Lite"
If this does not make sense, please say so, because it is a matter of me going back into my records and hoping I kept thing straight. In the course of going thru the files, I found Garage band packages in 90, 95, and 100 beats per minute, if that might give you an idea how disorganized I can get.
Any way, if you go to my current soundclound, you'll find both trax and the mix, I hope, at the top of the list. The last in was the mix, it is on top.
If you hear anything you want to use, take it, or ask for the file. It's 16 bars repeat X about eight or so. Its a two bar count, a four bar intro, and starts the outro at 136.

#11 User is offline   FunkDaddy Icon

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 05:55 PM

The big difference between 76 Trombones and this tune, is that in 76 there is a very strong 6 note rhythmic pulse in the song. There's a lot of instrumentation emphasizing the 6 note division. What I still don't understand is where you're getting a 6/8 feel in this song? Perhaps there's something I'm just not hearing.
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#12 User is offline   Kenneth Bradshaw Icon

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 06:54 PM

76 Trombones is just an example of a beat that is related to the shuffle . Of course, it is faster and has different dynamics. But drummers who have played in marching bands will recognize this as one of the two major marching beats and will have played it thousands of times. 76 Trombones is a written example of how the shuffle is related to 6/8 time. I imagine if we could trace the history, we would find the shuffle coming out of New Orleans and early jazz marches.

I went back and listen to Ed's piece again, and I hear the shuffle in the beat and 6/8 time in the basic melody.

#13 User is offline   FunkDaddy Icon

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 08:04 PM

Agree to disagree perhaps? lol I just don't hear it :) Maybe I just can't get past the 4/4 feel of the drums.

(Hope you haven't minded us arguing about your song Ed!)
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#14 User is offline   Lazz Icon

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 08:13 PM

My ears lean over to Kenneth.
If I wanted to replicate that feel, I would also be writing it as two-step triplets.

So many drummers, such little time.
(sigh)
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#15 User is offline   globalbeatsinc Icon

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 09:54 AM

I love this country instrumental !!!. Are these drums live? If you can get superior drummer 2.0 you should. It has some great sounds. It would also improve the overall quality.

#16 User is offline   ed_shaw Icon

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 05:00 PM

Thanks, global beats...it's a mixture of Isolated Band in a Box tracks, about which there has been some discussion, and, no Funk Daddy, you men have right at it. I am enjoying your discussion. It has taken me deeper into the software, into the waltz section of the pre made tracks and into a look at Old Rugged Cross in 6/8. As it is, the discussion between Kenneth and yourself went over my head a few entries ago.
Giving me a MAC, GB, and a composition software is like putting a chimp in the cockpit of an F-16.
I'll look into Superior Drummer 2.0, global. Thanks for the tip. I have been looking at an Alesis 16 for a few years, but the deal is, I'm not that good at rhythm and I don't trust my skills to tap out a drum track, you know, record directly into the mix like I do with my guitar. Previous efforts have not been rewarding, and, as Funk Daddy has pointed out, I have some challenges staying with the beat. I'm more into the idea of software that would produce drum tracks that could be pasted into Garage Band and are compatible, like BIAB is.
If you look back a couple of posts, I link to the two drum tracks that mix to give a third, which is the track used on this "Lite," actually, "I Saw the Light." Those tracks made in BB can be dragged right into GB timelines and everything syncs, including the two bar count in. Maybe Superior drummer is the ticket.
Thanks, Lazz, too, for earing in.

#17 User is offline   FunkDaddy Icon

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 05:35 PM

Ed, if you are investing in a new drum software program, go with EZDrummer from the same company that makes Superior (ToonTrack). It was my first foray into software drum programs and it sold me within minutes of using it. It's also much cheaper (about $200 less) than SD 2.0 and you can always upgrade. I still sometimes fall back on EZD/EZX (EZDrummer expansions) sounds within Superior Drummer 2.0

With EZDrummer you've also got loads of expansion packs if you want to improve your library.

Both programs offer drag and drop functionality with GarageBand. So you'd just pick a groove you like and drop it into your song. Very quick way to build a great drumtrack.
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#18 User is offline   ed_shaw Icon

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 07:33 PM

Thank you.
I looked and thought the SD 2.0 kinda pricey. Thx for the alt.

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