[the Lull Between]

I've been on a song writing tear for the last few years. I've recorded a ton of songs and have written many more than I have time to record. Lately though I'm feeling really discouraged and am experiencing a mild existential crisis when it comes to writing/recording. I have no shortage of ideas, I feel that I could write hundreds of songs, I really do. What I have is a shortage of encouragement. I have no fans, not even my friends or wife show any real interest in my songs. It's a struggle to get anyone at all to even listen.

The few songs I've posted here have been well received, which is fantastic, and has kept me going. But really, have any of you ever reached the point where you wonder if all the work is worth it? I've always written for fun and self expression but I would be lying if I said I wouldn't like for people to hear the songs. Does art really serve a purpose if nobody sees/hears it? If nobody responds to your music does that mean it's not any good? These are the questions that keep creeping up from the back of my mind.

I know the true purpose of doing this hobby is because you enjoy it, and I do enjoy writing/recording, but it's also a great deal of work and time spent that I feel deep down that I maybe could be doing something more productive with like exercising or yard work.

Sorry, don't mean to rant on and on, I'm just wondering what keeps you guys going if you have no fans/listeners.

[Neal K]

the Lull Between, on 18 October 2011 - 11:45 AM, said:

But really, have any of you ever reached the point where you wonder if all the work is worth it?
Does art really serve a purpose if nobody sees/hears it?
If nobody responds to your music does that mean it's not any good?

These are all great questions, worthy of more thought than I have time to answer. All I can tell you is my experience. In my late teens/early twenties I worked as a musician in a band. I felt I had two options: Rock Star or nothing. Obviously I never became a Rock Star, and neither was I nothing. I went on to a luctrative and satisfying career in another field, putting music aside.

After many years I realized something was missing in my life, and I started to write songs again. I never thought it would lead me back into performing, but that's what happened. I realized I don't need to be a Rock Star, or any kind of star at all. Writing the music is the joy for me. So....

Have any of you ever reached the point where you wonder if all the work is worth it?

Yes, and I gave it up. But I found my way back to it and the joy is brings me can't be measured.

Does art really serve a purpose if nobody sees/hears it?

I've heard that Vincent VanGough, or some famous artist, never sold a painting while he was alive. You have no idea who you affect with your music. Maybe you only affect yourself, but isn't that enough?

If nobody responds to your music does that mean it's not any good?

It might mean that. There are thousands of other paintings who never sold anything when they were alive or dead. But, really, what is good? Do YOU like it? All you need to do is to satisfy yourself.

Neal

[the Lull Between]

Neal K, on 18 October 2011 - 04:32 PM, said:

These are all great questions, worthy of more thought than I have time to answer...

Thanks for the reply Neal! I suppose it really comes down to the reason we do it. I feel that I do it for myself because I enjoy the process, but if that's really true why do I keep getting a nagging feeling of failure because nobody else is listening to my work? It's almost like having a conversation with yourself, you can't help but feel foolish doing that, at least sometimes.

I've heard that about Van Gogh too. I'm guessing he was ahead of his time, not a quality I can apply to myself though It's nice to hear from other artists such as yourself, I imagine there are a lot of folks on this board who have the same doubts I do from time to time Have any of you other board members here found a way to motivate yourself without fans?

[FunkDaddy]

If you enjoy writing and recording, don't place any importance in whether or not people like what you do. Truth be told, yes, if nobody responds to your music, chances are it's not that good...or maybe you just haven't found the right audience.

I could win every Muse song or lyric contest I enter and it wouldn't mean as much to me as the beautiful girls from high school who I was too painfully shy to even talk to, now telling me how amazing my voice is (and one of them now working with me on her own music). Ego trip to end all ego trips. Music has helped me out of some painful and depressed times. It's definitely awesome having fans and people telling me how much they enjoy listening to me, even if there's just a handful of them for me at this point, but it still helped even when I was too embarrassed to let anybody hear my songs, even my closest friends or family.

I put plenty of stock into what people think of my music, but that's me. That's a barometer I've chosen for myself. Examine what you want out of music and if compliments are one of them, you might have to adjust your writing style or simply practice more.

[the Lull Between]

FunkDaddy, on 18 October 2011 - 10:45 PM, said:

...the beautiful girls from high school who I was too painfully shy to even talk to, now telling me how amazing my voice is (and one of them now working with me on her own music).

That would BLOW my mind! In fact, I'd prefer that to winning any contests!

I guess I think of songwriting as a form of communication. All forms of art are I suppose, but painting, poetry, fiction, sculpture etc are more abstract in nature (in my mind). Songwriting is the most personal form of expression, at least in the way I approach it. That's why having no one listen is particularly difficult, it's like screaming into a pillow.

Like you I also put stock into what people think. I feel intellectually that I shouldn't care but deep down I know that I do. I think what you say is right, I need to practice more or find a new singer or do something else different if I want different results. Isn't that what they say the definition of insanity is? My current style just isn't finding an audience, I need to learn to take the hint I suppose.

[Kenneth Bradshaw]

If you have written hundreds of songs and still have ideas, then you probably know what you are doing. Anyone can put together a simple melody with 2 or 3 chords and claim to have written a song. But to write many and keep them fresh is a demonstation of talent. And you are probably a good judge of your own skill. Stay with your own instincts. I am working on a song right now that at first pass seemed like its chord progression was C, Bdim, Am, G. But as I played with it this stubborn E note kept sticking in the music and I realised that my progeression was C, Em inverted, Dm inverted, G. Few people who listen to the tune will ever know that, but I will and no matter how it is recieive, I will know that I paid the price to do it right. I am sure you have those kind of moments. Ken

[the Lull Between]

Kenneth Bradshaw, on 20 October 2011 - 03:23 PM, said:

Anyone can put together a simple melody with 2 or 3 chords and claim to have written a song... And you are probably a good judge of your own skill.

Well if you listen to my tracks you'll see that I probably fit well into that 2 or 3 chords category . I do feel like I've improved though, or at least that my songs are more sonically interesting now than when I started out. I'm sure I'll keep going, I have a strange need to write that keeps bringing me back. What really blows my mind is famous bands that have fans clamoring for new music and they don't write. I have the opposite problem

How did you guys find an audience? And does having an audience (however small) affect your writing content or style?

[neuroron]

the Lull Between, on 20 October 2011 - 04:36 PM, said:

Kenneth Bradshaw, on 20 October 2011 - 03:23 PM, said:

Anyone can put together a simple melody with 2 or 3 chords and claim to have written a song... And you are probably a good judge of your own skill.

Well if you listen to my tracks you'll see that I probably fit well into that 2 or 3 chords category . I do feel like I've improved though, or at least that my songs are more sonically interesting now than when I started out. I'm sure I'll keep going, I have a strange need to write that keeps bringing me back. What really blows my mind is famous bands that have fans clamoring for new music and they don't write. I have the opposite problem

How did you guys find an audience? And does having an audience (however small) affect your writing content or style?

By collaborating and networking you build up audiences. Your collaborators, though working with you are also an audience and their circles of friends become more potential audiences. Also, just like the Muse gives you an audience so does joining other groups and performing live. I'm a member of the Houston Songwriters Assoc (HSA) and NSAI here giving me more people listening. I also do open mics and (through the HSA) play at retirement and nursing homes, hospitals, etc, so if even a tiny fraction of the total population might really dig your stuff, if that's a fraction of a large total, the absolute number can be sizable.

The audience for me, has actually affected my style. When I was just recording I varied genre and style all over the place without any intent to target the songs. My live stuff has gotten to be more cheerful and upbeat for the homes and hospitals and I'm supposed to this troubadour thing at Texas Children's Hospital soon so, besides learning and personalizing a lot of covers [a lot os standards, which also has affected my writing] I've been trying to write things that are apropos to my performance venues, and also I'm playing uke more and more so that's affecting the writing.I've also performed at something called "Neuro Idol" at the Amer Academy of Neurology Annual Meetings, giving me an interested audience among fellow neurologists - and my patients are always asking me about my music and listening. I gave a lecture on "Music, the Brain and Parkinson's Disease" at on ethe local PD Support groups and finished off the lecture, by performing a couple of songs on uke - to a thunderous ovation

The collab contests here for me at least are a venue to forget all about performance considerations.

I started on the violin in Jr High, then took up guitar after 8th grade, other instruments along the way. I always knew I was going into some science field so "making it" was never a consideration, but this has remained a passion since then.

I am really into all aspects of music: composition, performance, cognition, physics, neurobiology... These all offer diferent perspectives on songwriting and recording - I could never get bored! Also, starting last year I started taking an evening creative writing workshop at my Hospital. The "genre" was "personal essay" and writing these essays [which requires really examing your own past in detail] triggered a ton of lyrics/songs - In addition, the emembers of the workshop have become an audience and I routinely bounce new songs off them.

For me music and songwriting is a real labour of love and complement to my job - although I do care what people think (and why) and I do want others to like my songs, I can see my own steady progress and feel good about not having to alter my course to make a living with this.

Probably more than you wanted to know! Ron

[Alistair S]

the Lull Between, on 20 October 2011 - 10:36 PM, said:

How did you guys find an audience? And does having an audience (however small) affect your writing content or style?

To say I found "an audience" feels a bit grand, to me. However, in a small way, I guess that's what it is.

It comprises a number of groups. The Muse is one group and, by sharing stuff here, I know there are some people who enjoy what I do. The main thing for me was to get out of the bedroom and share the songs. Local open mic sessions were an easy way of doing that. Scary, at first, but easy to access. I found a new group of people there who liked my songs and I started to learn what works and what doesn't. That extended into a number of new groups.

What is great, these days, is to find a new group of people who have never heard any of my stuff (because then I don't feel I'm boring them with the same old stuff over and over!).

In terms of writing style, I'd love to write more upbeat, faster songs - but whenever I sit down with that intent, I seem to end up with yet another slow, sad little dirge! One day I'll do it!

I do tend to focus on writing stuff I can play live and that will work without accompaniment. That's a choice, I think. The other thing that it does is it creates a drive to write new songs - because without new songs it becomes boring for both the performer and the audience. Covers are the easy way out, but a new song is better, I think.

Probably more than anything, it has extended my circle of friends. Friends are encouraging and that encouragement is more fuel for the fire.

[Neal K]

the Lull Between, on 20 October 2011 - 02:36 PM, said:

How did you guys find an audience? And does having an audience (however small) affect your writing content or style?

I'm lucky when it comes to these questions. I'm not much of a singer, but my wife is. In our act we do mostly covers, but about 10% or our set is originals. I don't kid myself and believe the audience is there to watch me play guitar or hear me sing - it's my wife's voice that they enjoy. But I get to express myself through her interpretions of my songs! It's a wonderful thing.

The audience absolutely affects my writing content. So does my wife. I try to write in a style that suits her voice, and I know the venues we play, so I write for the people in those venues. It's an interesting challenge to write for another singer, and it keeps me from boxing myself into a certain style. The songs I post on this site are usually "leftovers" - the ones I write and sing for myself just for the fun of it.

What if you found a musical partner. Maybe you could form a duo with another person and you could inspire each other to keep going?

Neal

[DannyDep]

Hi Lull,
I could explain what keeps me going but what would be the point?
Only I have to find out the answer to that question for myself,
just as you have to figure that our for yourself.
Let me ask you a question.
"which is more dangerous to a person: failure or success?"

Those are not my words. They are the words from Victor Wooten's book, "The Music Lesson".

If you are interested in finding out more about the subject (and way more),
and perhaps finding some inspiration for keeping on going, may i suggest that you read this book.

I hope that this has been of some benefit to you.
Good luck in your decision making and by all means, have fun.
ciao, Dan

[FunkDaddy]

Neal K, on 24 October 2011 - 12:11 PM, said:

What if you found a musical partner. Maybe you could form a duo with another person and you could inspire each other to keep going?

I can personally attest to this working quite well.

Especially if they're extremely attractive.

[Desertrose]

I've always said that a song without ears is a lonely thing.
Of course we want others to listen. Isn't music a communication?
All of us would be lying if we said we write music ENTIRELY for ourselves simply because of that.
I believe family and friends ARE a good barometer. A good place to start anyway.
You have to ask yourself if they aren't "getting it" or getting INTO it, then how can I make it better? The communication?
Those that know nothing about writing music always know if it reaches them in some way.

Boards like these are invaluable. So many helpful people who KNOW the struggles,and the craft, and are usually happy to listen and help.
(And here they have given some very good advice!)

I think we all start out by writing many MANY songs (quite frankly though I'm jealous of your abundance of inspiration!) but there comes a point where you have to hone and craft those ideas into a form that is identifiable to the average listener - because it's a communication!

BUT...never let go of the fact that you enjoy the process.
To me it's like therapy - meditation.
I think I enjoy those hours of piecing things together and reaching inside myself FAR more than I do the actual finished result.

And post some more music!
Lots of ears here!

[transmissiondown]

The Lull Between, if you stopped writing would the thoughts and ideas just go away or would they just well up inside of you until you felt as though you would burst? I stopped writing for a way to long period of time and it about drove me nuts, even if it was just snip-it's of an idea. The best thing I found was just to get it out, write it down and then if it was bad I could just forget about it.

What really keeps me going is the idea that the next piece of writing will be better than the last piece written and then I can move on to an even better piece. It doesn't always happen but...

As for fans, who is/are the target audience you are working for then target just for them otherwise it's like taking a shotgun and shooting into the air to what you will hit. Friends and family are tough nuts break, they are who they are to you because of birth or they just like you. Music is a very subjective form of art, not all of my friends like my music so I have to find the people who do. This is not an easy task either.
Consider who you want as an audience and then work to that goal knowing full well that you can't convert everyone to your style of music.

[fabkebab]

Great topic!!


I wish I had something structured to add to the topic - But I dont have much.

I have been at the muse for years, and in spite of even winning a competition or two here, I don't honestly know if I have ever written a song that has made it into someones playlist / mp3 player- So in that respect I feel the same as you about whether it is worthwhile.

That said, I JUST KEEP DOING IT!! -Whats worse, I even get annoyed with myself when I get writer's block (as if anyone cares whether I write a new song or not!) - so deep down I have reached the realization that I do it for myself.

After its done and I am proud of it, of course I become a wretched bore as I try to show it off. But reality-check phrase came from Stewart Alexander - "Everyone likes the smell of their own farts". Fame does not beckon for me because I am probably not quite talented/good enough- in the same way I didnt have the good looks to end up dating supermodels. Life goes on and like everyone else I do the best I can at what I love.

[fabkebab]

Wow Frank - I was thinking of you as I read this thread (and wrote my reply) - I dont think anyone has thought more about this question than yourself a.k.a. "AMereHobbyist"!

[jonie]

Funny you should mention family and friends. I was uploading some lyrics and songs of mine onto a new site this weekend and tonight I asked my 18 yr old son if he like to hear a recording of me singing a song I'd written the lyric for. His answer was "Not really, Mom." Part of his reluctance might have something to do with the fact that, during his lifetime, I have probably spent more time with my "hobby" than he would have liked. Part of it could also be due to the fact that I don't write anything he'd be interested in listening to. Still, it hurt my feelings a little.

Friends, and family especially, are not the best sources of encouragement - they tend to carry some resentment for our unprofitable obsession.

If you are not out there performing at open mics or other local venues due to nervousness or an inability to actually perform the type of music you create - I could suggest you try putting your stuff up on youtube - matching it up with some engaging visuals that might generate a following. You'll get the occasional a-hole posting a nasty comment but you might well receive some glowing ones as well.

I think today's listeners are actually more inclined to find you on youtube rather than on a musical hosting site like soundclick and soundcloud.

I've been thinking of going that route myself, if I can figure out how to do it, that is.

[Jim Colyer]

The fear of not going keeps me going.