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Rules for Posting a Song:
1) Please critique 2 or more songs for every song you post.
2) Please post only one song per day.
3) Please keep it tasteful i.e. no overt sexuality or obscene, offensive language, etc.
4) Please indicate the intended genre below the title of your song, and also what kind of a critique you're after. Is this a song that you'll be promoting commercially? Is it a song you wrote simply because you wanted to and you'd like to make it better? The more info people have, the better they'll be able to give you the kind of feedback you're after. And please PLEASE note - if you're not really after critique at all, don't post here. The Artist's Cafe is happy to hear your completed songs. This is the place to post if you want honest feedback and are prepared to take what is given (what you do with it, is of course, up to you).
5) Please post the lyrics along with the clickable link to your song's music.
6) Only post songs you have written or have permission to post. Please don't post cover songs.
7) It is polite to acknowledge critiques, but please don’t overdo it by “bumping” your thread to the top too frequently.
8) If you revise the song, please give a date and post on the same thread, or folks will unknowingly still comment on the old one.
9) Please be sure to visit other areas of the board to both learn and spread your knowledge.

Rules for Critiquing a Song:
1) The purpose of this forum is to promote better song writing by providing encouragement and constructive feedback focused on improvement. Strive to be courteous and respectful in your critiques, keeping in mind that we all come to this forum with different perspectives, genre preferences and levels of experience.
2) Offer constructive criticism and suggestions you think may help the writer make the most of his or her vision of where they want to go with their song.
3) If you think something really works, say so. Make an attempt to say why you think it does. If you see areas you think could be improved, explain why you believe they need improvement and offer suggestions, if you have any.

Anonymity often helps us forget that there is a person at the other end of our critique. Imagine, if you can, that you are speaking to the writer face to face.

Thanks!
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What constitutes a critique? Dicussion

Poll: What constitutes a critique? (51 member(s) have cast votes)

Should "atta boy" critiques count towards the 2-4 rule?

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When songs are bumped after extended periods of time, should that require another 2-4 critiques?

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#51 User is offline   Billy Icon

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 04:36 PM

Salley,

You may be right. I like this proposed idea as an added piece to what we've already got going but not as any type of recongfiguration. I, like you, value many of the existing forums we have in place and respect the varying levels of commitment, talent and investment that we see on a regular basis. Although the atta boys may rub me the wrong way from time to time, that's certainly one's perogative and I've dropped a few here and there myself. Sometimes I have nothing more to add than nice job!


I am a bit concerned about the lack of involvement and participation on the site as of late. Especially in the feedback forums. It might just be attributed to summer. Ironically, I haven't been contributing much either. I hope it's just a faze!

Take care,

Billy

#52 User is offline   Alistair S Icon

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 05:00 PM

View PostLen, on 22 July 2010 - 09:05 PM, said:

Dottie, this place is for anyone to use as they see fit, within the rules of course. if it works for you, but others don't like it, it's not your problem.


I agree.
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#53 User is offline   daddio Icon

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 05:08 PM

View PostAlistair S, on 22 July 2010 - 06:00 PM, said:

View PostLen, on 22 July 2010 - 09:05 PM, said:

Dottie, this place is for anyone to use as they see fit, within the rules of course. if it works for you, but others don't like it, it's not your problem.


I agree.


I also concur.
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#54 User is offline   R-N-R Jim Icon

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 05:48 PM

Hi Salley and the gang


I kinda classify an industry pro as anyone who is making a living through music, be it their own or what they are promoting i.e. publisher/ pitch person or agency. Billy hit it on the head of the Simon Cowl example.

At SOWI (Songwriters of Wisconsin International) we have judges for our songwriting contests that are from all walks of "music life". And they don't to my knowledge receive money for judging our contests. Mind you, this was something that had been worked out by senior members of our club through the years. Some of the judges advertise in our 4 -6 times printed flyer magazine as well as on our website. The types of judges we have vary in job descriptions...some are DJs for radio stations, small to large music publishers, college music professors, audio visual advertising agencies as well as studio pros who work with people and music composition on a daily basis.

The variety of judges are there for the different music genre's that we advertise in the contests. Mind you, our prizes are nothing spectacular and really, for the same fee you can enter in a one of the national contests that have more prestigious judges and prizes. But were a small but fun bunch. And really, its our yearly seminar that we look forward to. We do book a half way decent guest for the seminar which costs anywhere from 600 dollars on up. And they are so insightful of the industry and tell of the stories behind songs that they got cut for their songwriters and what went into some of the demos etc.

Ive got to meet and talk to Chris Van Belkin of Combustion productions that has gotten cuts for Carrie Underwood...Roy Elkins whose Broadjam site is advertised here at the Muse(really interesting guy for sure). Perhaps he might be interested in doing a once a month critique.

As far as the Muse and the potential for some type of industry pro presence...its up to Jodi. I would think that being based in Toronto that she would know some publishers/music agency types or studio pros or even local DJs that might give up an afternoon or two critiquing once a month if there was something in return...like for a studio owner, what is better than advertising for demos produced at their studio? A talent agency that is looking for new acts that might not have thought about going online to look for material here or even knew this site existed might be surprised by some of the quality songs or artists posted at this site.

As far as lyric feedback is concerned, I think an industry pro could judge and read it and think to himself,"does it say anything to me? " Does it move me in a certain way?" Could I see this being in a song?"," Who might sing lyrics like this?" So, I think lyrics could be judged by an industry pro with some sort of insight that you wouldn't get from a fellow beginner at this site. Not a cut, just an observation, that's all. And if you have ever went to a Barnes and Nobles as well as some online book stores and checked out the volume of books written about songwriting, heck, its very competitive and for an author of those types of books, exposure is the name of the game for selling books.

I still suggest that all of you (if you haven't already) seek out a local songwriting organization or see if a NSAI chapter is in driving distance of your town or location. The person to person involvement is far more reaching to the senses and you'll be glad you joined.

So, Salley, this could be beneficial for the beginner as well as the advanced. Again, there are alot of people in this industry that aren't "big time", but they are just as important and in some cases know someone who knows someone at the top of their field. And as for it being once a month..it would be all that much more special, because you and I for the most part would want to showcase our best songs and lyrics and to have someone who has heard almost everything under the sun, what insight they could give us as well as maybe even praise us for our creativity. :)

just my two cents worth
R-N-R JIM
"Its all about taking the easy way out for you, I suppose" -elliot smith


To listen to songs I have written and recorded, go to these links:

https://soundcloud.com/tad-strange

https://soundclick.com/jimcanrock



link below is an honorable mention from a national songwriting contest that I entered the song "Baby" that I wrote with the help of singnpeach on vocals and a couple lines for the lyrics she added. Not bad for a muse collaboration.

http://www.songofthe...JamesUpham.html

#55 User is offline   Salley Gardens Icon

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 07:28 PM

View Postrocknrolljim, on 22 July 2010 - 04:48 PM, said:

So, Salley, this could be beneficial for the beginner as well as the advanced. Again, there are alot of people in this industry that aren't "big time", but they are just as important and in some cases know someone who knows someone at the top of their field.

I think you just made my point about a good number of the people already regulars at the Muse. Many are not beginners, but well seasoned with a lot to offer. They may not be famous, but several are performing regularly and/or producing income and/or achieving recognition in prestigious song contests, without capitalizing on their fellow Musers. The type of feedback you describe for the lyric critiques is currently available. Granted, every comment given doesn't fit that category (hence the purpose of this thread!) However, I still think the burden is on the songwriter to glean what s/he can, regardless to whether the comments/critiques are from industry "pros" or not.

As for "in depth" critiques, I think the various monthly contests are a good source. There are a number of people who score the entries that will provide their comments privately to the entrants if asked. Winning a contest isn't necessarily the best indicator of a song's impact, as are extremes in scores. There also seems to be a more intense interest in the song when posted in the Songs Feedback forum after a contest has ended. (I'm not speaking about the Lyrics contests, although this may be true of them, also.)

I agree with Daddio, however, that there will always be people who would rather blame the critic for various offences, or even there fellow peers for not providing them with what what they need to succeed, or getting in the way of success. There are always those in the song contests who insist people deliberately vote to skew the results, and others who insist everyone else's bad lyrics smother the opportunity for their own lyrics to shine. In the end, it's still the songwriter's job to improve using whatever tools are helpful.

I think the issues of what constitutes a good critique and the possibility of being "discovered" are two separate issues, not that they have to be mutually exclusive. I still don't see a link between them and recruiting other industry professionals that would be equally ecstatic at being discovered. (A&R people look for new talent in sites like "YouTube", which present both audio and video. They're not about to wade through the site, but look at videos already proving their popularity {and possible profitability} with huge numbers of hits.)

#56 User is offline   R-N-R Jim Icon

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 08:12 PM

Hi Salley

That may be true to a point as far as some here that are advanced and seasoned, but...having someone outside the muse bias or cliche' may have more to offer as being honest and unbiased or have a different take on a song or lyric all together. As you and daddio pointed out that these people would want something in return for their time, which is understandable. I think with each critique "they" the industry pro would not only show their knowledge as Billy had seen first hand, but could further their rep as a music industry pro, be it in demo service or just plain private paid critique sessions. the one song or lyric per month would be a freebie, but if you wanted more, you could pay for that next session if you couldn't wait for the next month freebie or felt it was worth your while.

Lets say that you've written a song that is quite worthy of the next level i.e. being pitched. Having a pro look at it would maybe garner some favor as well as maybe if the person was tied in some shape or form to the industry as a publisher or professional song plugger...maybe , just maybe it might get pitched. As far as a studio pro or studio owner, some of them are quite aware of artists on all different levels cutting songs in the studio. If you had a song that for some reason stuck in the owners head and a session came up where the artist was still looking for songs, who knows, it might get pitched in a clandestine way.

I think a beginner writer may even be inspired to take their time writing if they got feedback that tells them that maybe they need to work on the creative end of writing first before posting. Again, it would only be one lyric or song per month that would get reviewed and I bet that review would stick in their minds more so than the atta boy or silence they get at the lyric forum. Like I said, its not like you cant get a credible critique from people here, but if it was from someone who is unbiased and knows alittle something about the industry as a whole, Im sure it would make more of an impression on the beginner than what he or she gets half of the time here at the Muse if that.

Again, this isn't the end all, be all..its just an addition to what is already going on here at the Muse. Something new, something different to shake up the status quo.

just my two cents worth
R-N-R JIM
"Its all about taking the easy way out for you, I suppose" -elliot smith


To listen to songs I have written and recorded, go to these links:

https://soundcloud.com/tad-strange

https://soundclick.com/jimcanrock



link below is an honorable mention from a national songwriting contest that I entered the song "Baby" that I wrote with the help of singnpeach on vocals and a couple lines for the lyrics she added. Not bad for a muse collaboration.

http://www.songofthe...JamesUpham.html

#57 User is offline   Salley Gardens Icon

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 08:47 PM

View Postrocknrolljim, on 22 July 2010 - 07:12 PM, said:

Again, this isn't the end all, be all..its just an addition to what is already going on here at the Muse. Something new, something different to shake up the status quo.

With all due respect, this doesn't sound like anything new, but a rehash of your monthly lyric idea, with the added hope that new critic blood will be better than old critic blood because they might recognize brilliance better and might know other people who might be in a position to make someone here a star.

#58 User is offline   R-N-R Jim Icon

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 10:54 PM

Hi Salley

Well...maybe we got alittle off the subject, but did we? Isn't it all about feedback? And yes, its a similar idea that I brought to the board last year, but with a different twist. Apparently the same problem is discussed over and over of why people aren't getting feedback and the simple truth is the volume of posts and the time that nobody wants to take reading sub par lyrics, pretty much sums it up. Nobody here seems to want to either enforce the post rules here or wants the volume per person of posts be regulated. And so the whining continues...

At least with a once a month industry pro critiquing one lyric or song per month, they will at least get one honest unbiased opinion rather than slim to none at all of their 20+ lyrics they posted that month. So, no one is saying to dismantle the lyric forum, this would just be an addition to what is going on. My monthly forum idea that was presented last summer went well as far as the few people who did post their. Most got at least 5+ critiques per lyric/song idea posted. A certain higher percentage than what each posts gets at the lyric forum.

The quality over quantity angle or mindset was what I was trying to achieve there. Unfortunately Alistair wanted to "exclude lyrics that had music to them already" in this monthly forum. Thus the interest in that forum by writers who write both music and lyrics fell off and after I stopped participating in november, the forum was scuttled.

So, this is an idea with some buzz to it because it brings in another element that most people might be interested in. So, all that is being asked of the industry pro is alittle time for an opinion on one piece of work per month. Again, we may attract a number of these types of people thus lightening up the burden or work load from future posters.

In return, these industry pros can get free exposure of what they are about without being committed time wise to this site. I mean, if these books and seminars weren't worth anything to anyone, then why do they exist? Wouldn't a beginner maybe listen more intently to someone who's "been there, done that" compared to someone who is of their own beginner skill set?(which is the case for the most part at the lyric forum) Even the advanced or seasoned writers here don't have the time to critique or mentor the vast number of newbies that trickle into this site. We don't get paid :)

As far as a mentor system as Alistair mentioned, well, not everyone is cut out to be a lyric or songwriter. You could pay me to be a mentor, but I couldn't guarantee that the next big thing would happen because the talent level of a person varies and I wouldn't put much faith in my own teaching abilities to someone who simply doesn't nowhere near have "it". I'm not a miracle worker. lol But Alistair, if your volunteering your time, you have plenty of newbies that would benefit from your experiences.

You see, you cant teach talent or creativity. Its something that your born with. Only through one's efforts or interests does it find itself realized. There are people who have god given talents that regardless on how they would teach it, it couldn't be emulated because its a unique talent, be it expressing one's self in a unique way(vocals, lyrics,level of coordination). You can share experiences, but isn't that what these pro writers do that write books?

The thing is with an industry pro, they will be utmost honest about assessing ones talent or short comings, be it creativity, talent or direction. I think beginners would take the blunt assessment from a pro as either reality or motivation to improve. Again, No one can tell anyone what they can and cant do in life. But at least a sense of reality of ones talent can be measured by an unbiased professional.

I bet a beginner would rather be assessed by a pro than by another beginner. Wouldn't you agree? It doesn't mean that the lyric forum "as is" isn't a valuable tool, but it seems like its not working or we wouldn't be having this discussion.

just my two cents worth
R-N-R JIM
P.S. Salley, is there anything wrong about being discovered?:)
"Its all about taking the easy way out for you, I suppose" -elliot smith


To listen to songs I have written and recorded, go to these links:

https://soundcloud.com/tad-strange

https://soundclick.com/jimcanrock



link below is an honorable mention from a national songwriting contest that I entered the song "Baby" that I wrote with the help of singnpeach on vocals and a couple lines for the lyrics she added. Not bad for a muse collaboration.

http://www.songofthe...JamesUpham.html

#59 User is offline   Salley Gardens Icon

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 01:39 PM

I just reviewed all the posts in this thread (as an excuse to procrastinate from repairing my kitchen floor) and it got me thinking that a shift towards making "Soundcloud" our site of choice for posting songs might be a good idea.

If you haven't done so already, click the link from Steve's earlier post about it.

Musers have historically used Soundclick as our default choice. However, as Fab said, the ability to add comments directly to the audio at spots of interest would make giving feedback a breeze. While those comments wouldn't show up directly within the Muse thread, more in depth discussion could.

I think a move to Soundcloud could completely reinvigorate the way we give Songs/Instrumentals feedback.

Whadyall think?

#60 User is offline   Steve Cooke Icon

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 06:40 PM

View PostSalley Gardens, on 25 July 2010 - 07:39 PM, said:

I just reviewed all the posts in this thread (as an excuse to procrastinate from repairing my kitchen floor) and it got me thinking that a shift towards making "Soundcloud" our site of choice for posting songs might be a good idea.

If you haven't done so already, click the link from Steve's earlier post about it.

Musers have historically used Soundclick as our default choice. However, as Fab said, the ability to add comments directly to the audio at spots of interest would make giving feedback a breeze. While those comments wouldn't show up directly within the Muse thread, more in depth discussion could.

I think a move to Soundcloud could completely reinvigorate the way we give Songs/Instrumentals feedback.

Whadyall think?



Well, I guess that people know what I think about this. I found the dominant song-hosting service here, SoundClick, to be rather a staid format. I don't know how many plays other people get on 'Click, but I have noticed that the number of 'fans' and 'friends' being acquired by some very talented musicians was negligible. So not many people are automatically being notified when they upload new material.

SoundCloud, on the other hand has a very good system for keeping you updated with developments, including the posting of new songs. Using the 'dashboard' facility, which you won't see as a non-member, you can monitor what's generating discussion, which tracks are getting praise and which ones are being criticised.

I don't know whether it would reinvigorate the Muse or not. It might simply supersede this forum. I suspect it is already doing that because you can engage in similar dialogue with fellow songwriters on SoundCloud, both publicly and privately.

The other positive aspect of the 'Cloud is that it's not only other songwriters who are taking part - which is an inevitable limitation of the Muse. There are plenty of the non-muso listening public becoming members and finding music there now. People who don't have any of their own material uploaded but who are able to comment on what they hear and interact with the musicians who've created it. So you're able to get detailed critiques from other songwriters and gauge the reactions of laypeople too.

#61 User is offline   R-N-R Jim Icon

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 06:58 PM

Hi Salley

Sound cloud is certainly a site or idea worth exploring(I will later on) as far as the completed songs, but in the same token, this isn't the answer we were looking for as far as the topic of what this thread was started upon i.e. being the whole lack of feedback issue on lyrics.

I had proposed a one lyric post per week moratorium last summer to perhaps get people more in line with critiquing but got responses like" This would slow things down too much where people would lose interest" or "Those types of people usually post for a month and after not getting any responses drop off the site anyways" which is usually what happens. So, I haven't heard any suggestions last summer or this summer that would make me believe the problem of low or no feedback is going to go away anytime soon.

The thought of an industry pro at least critiquing one lyric for someone who doesn't get any feedback may mean something to them. For me, I find the song feedback forum more entertaining and easier to spend time in. I will on occasion wander into the lyric forum, but I just find it harder to critique without music or a person not stating what genre they had envisioned the lyric for. Most are beginners and are just finding out if their creative or not. And with the volume that some post at, well, not worth my time.

Also,human nature as it is, one likes to answer to every critique and thus inflate their response tally creating a false buzz. And as we know, the volume posting creates this endless cycle of trying to stay in the spotlight. That never happened at the monthly lyric forum. And each person got at least 5 if not more responses per post than at the regular lyric forum. So...my idea wasn't such a bad one at all. Maybe having an industry pro critiquing the monthly forum, the number of people posting that one lyric per month would swell at least from the 10 or so people we had to 50. And people could add their critique along with the industry pro's response too.

I think the other argument that comes up, is that the beginner says he doesn't know how to critique a lyric and thus passes on their duty to give feedback. Maybe Alistair could give a forum class to newbies on this aspect since most of his critiques are rather in depth. He could tell them what to look for, plot,structure etc. And have a lock on the lyric forum for the beginner until he completes 10 well thought out critiques before they post their first lyric of their own, or would that be too harsh?

I mean, you have to admit that I am trying to figure out a way for lyric writers to get feedback as well as participate in the feedback process. Has anyone else come up with anything? I'm all ears.

just my two cents worth
R-N-R Jim
"Its all about taking the easy way out for you, I suppose" -elliot smith


To listen to songs I have written and recorded, go to these links:

https://soundcloud.com/tad-strange

https://soundclick.com/jimcanrock



link below is an honorable mention from a national songwriting contest that I entered the song "Baby" that I wrote with the help of singnpeach on vocals and a couple lines for the lyrics she added. Not bad for a muse collaboration.

http://www.songofthe...JamesUpham.html

#62 User is offline   daddio Icon

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 07:30 PM

One thing I thought was interesting was the silver critique format. Like everything else, interest in it seems to wax and wane.
As far as industry professionals giving critiques here, how about a panel made up of the top critiquers already posting? Chosen by their peers and serving a set term. One, two, or three songs are selected every month and everyone on the panel gives an in-depth critique. Granted, it's not as "heavy" as what you've envisioned but might be easier to put together.
Lately I'm feeling my inner dog.

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable"

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." Hunter S. Thompson

"The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over."
Hunter S. Thompson


"I pay no attention whatever to anybody's praise or blame. I simply follow my own feelings."
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart


My Soundclick
My Reverbnation page
My Facebook

Ain't That True 1+1 Song Of The Year 2009

When You're Cain 1+1 Song of the Year 2013

#63 User is offline   Salley Gardens Icon

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 07:32 PM

View PostSteve Cooke, on 25 July 2010 - 05:40 PM, said:

I don't know whether it would reinvigorate the Muse or not. It might simply supersede this forum. I suspect it is already doing that because you can engage in similar dialogue with fellow songwriters on SoundCloud, both publicly and privately.

I can't foresee Soundcloud superseding the Muse, but I can see how it would complement the Muse better than Soundclick, or some of the other means Musers use for sharing audio. I'm sure there is a fine community on Soundcloud, and that would become an extension of the Muse community, the same way the Muse may become an extension of your community. I think we get used to the protocols of a particular community, and that remains our "home base". There are some things the Muse does *very* well. The balance might shift for some Musers to prefer Soundclound, and the same might be said in reverse. In any case, I think using the two sites in concert with each other would be beneficial to all who do so.

Quote

The other positive aspect of the 'Cloud is that it's not only other songwriters who are taking part - which is an inevitable limitation of the Muse. There are plenty of the non-muso listening public becoming members and finding music there now. People who don't have any of their own material uploaded but who are able to comment on what they hear and interact with the musicians who've created it. So you're able to get detailed critiques from other songwriters and gauge the reactions of laypeople too.

I agree!

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 07:43 PM

View Postrocknrolljim, on 25 July 2010 - 05:58 PM, said:

Hi Salley

Sound cloud is certainly a site or idea worth exploring(I will later on) as far as the completed songs, but in the same token, this isn't the answer we were looking for as far as the topic of what this thread was started upon i.e. being the whole lack of feedback issue on lyrics.

Whup! Look again, Jim... the topic of this thread had nothing to do with feedback on Lyrics, but entirely with completed songs. The majority of Musers seem to be "lyrics only" writers, and discussion often drifts into that direction. (I'm not one of them, therefore, I rarely, if ever, critique in the Lyrics Forum, except for a few in the Montly Lyric Forum to help get it started, and for the Silver Critiques).

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 08:11 PM

View PostSalley Gardens, on 26 July 2010 - 01:43 AM, said:

View Postrocknrolljim, on 25 July 2010 - 05:58 PM, said:

Hi Salley

Sound cloud is certainly a site or idea worth exploring(I will later on) as far as the completed songs, but in the same token, this isn't the answer we were looking for as far as the topic of what this thread was started upon i.e. being the whole lack of feedback issue on lyrics.

Whup! Look again, Jim... the topic of this thread had nothing to do with feedback on Lyrics, but entirely with completed songs. The majority of Musers seem to be "lyrics only" writers, and discussion often drifts into that direction. (I'm not one of them, therefore, I rarely, if ever, critique in the Lyrics Forum, except for a few in the Montly Lyric Forum to help get it started, and for the Silver Critiques).



I've seen quite a few SoundCloud artists who are looking for lyricists and/or singers to collaborate with.

To pick a random example, only today I was listening to a new track by Leijonamieli, a composer from Finland whose work I very much admire. His latest piece was posted with an expression of interest in hearing from a singer/lyricist who could add words (in English, not Finnish).

Occasionally I think that some of the lyricists who hang around the lyric-writing forums here without ever seeming to progress to having their words put to music ought to get out there and proactively look for composers to work with.

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 10:45 PM

Hi Salley

chuckle chuckle..yeh, your right, I didn't think the song feedback forum had the same problem. Therefore I was thinking I was reading the lyric forum thread..lol. I guess if the song feedback forum is having the same problem, perhaps regulating it in some shape or form might be the answer.

I didn't think the song feedback forum had anywhere as much traffic as the lyric forum because it takes alot more time and effort to write both lyrics and music as well as figuring out how to arrange etc.

Then I guess an industry pro forum would work for both. Maybe someone from TAXI could volunteer some time in return for some free advertising. And I still think having some non-bias judges for the contests, say some area DJs in Toronto that Jodi knows wouldnt really cost anything.

just an idea
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Posted 26 July 2010 - 06:49 AM

View PostSalley Gardens, on 26 July 2010 - 01:32 AM, said:

I can't foresee Soundcloud superseding the Muse, but I can see how it would complement the Muse better than Soundclick, or some of the other means Musers use for sharing audio. I'm sure there is a fine community on Soundcloud, and that would become an extension of the Muse community, the same way the Muse may become an extension of your community. I think we get used to the protocols of a particular community, and that remains our "home base". There are some things the Muse does *very* well. The balance might shift for some Musers to prefer Soundclound, and the same might be said in reverse. In any case, I think using the two sites in concert with each other would be beneficial to all who do so.



Another benefit of SoundCloud, as I see it, is that you can use the timed comment facility to solicit critiques on specific elements of a song.

For some of the tracks in my 'Works in progress' set, for example, I've added comments asking for people's opinions on paricular parts of the recordings, such as what they think of the spoken vocal section in '20-20 vision' or the guitar solo in the same song. As the listener plays the track, that comment automatically pops up at the relevant point in the song and they can respond if they wish.

It's quite a good icebreaker, actually. Instead of leaving the listener to think about how best to introduce a critical point, you actually invite it, you let them know that it's okay to say they don't like something and save them the hassle of coming up with a diplomatic way to bring up the topic of that dodgy middle-eight. Not everyone does this, of course, but I've found it a good way of getting feedback on elements of a song that I'm not sure about.

This could also be a way of stopping people getting side-tracked with their critiques and throwing in too many red herrings. If you upload a work in progress which you know has a dodgy bass guitar part but you're really wanting feedback on the lyric or the vocal sound, you can add a disclaimer making sure that people know you're already of that point before they make it.

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 05:44 AM

Wow, I think this thread was a great place to get oriented to this forum. I don't feel quite ready to jump in and start saying too much, but I enjoyed and appreciated all of the input I've read here. I think there are always going to be issues, no matter where you participate, when something as sensitive as personal, creative expression is involved. I know that two of my influences, Leonard Cohen and Bob Dylan, sought input and reaction about their work. Cohen, as a young poet in Montreal, I'm told, had regular coffeehouse meetings with 3-4 poet friends and they'd read and shred apart each others work. The only anecdote I'm familiar with regarding Dylan was when he was in Carmel with Joan Baez and he'd peck away at the typewriter and hand her sheets and ask her what she thought. In both cases, the common denominator seems to be getting input from someone who's input you value. How anybody gets there is up to them, and of course there are undoubtedly other ways to skin that particular cat, but you don't find without seeking or you're not found unless you're somewhere you can be found.

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Posted 09 January 2011 - 06:15 PM

This has been a tough issue for me.... I think the part about making crits that I feel I'm not qualified to make... It's what keeps me off the lyrics board.... I just don't use that board for that reason and I desperately need that... I'm a half way decent guitar player but lyrically not so great... thats why I can make crits on the song board... even there I struggle with crits... But I do the best I can... but this place has helped me alot especially RLD...

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 04:03 AM

I haven't read all of this long thread so I might be repeating someone.

I think a lot of "crits" relate to the "product" and not the "song" - which is maybe wrong as it's a "songwriting board". I don't mind that because obviously a talented singer/musician can make bad songs sound good and, in fact, there is a body of listeners who don't derive much pleasure from a lyric/melody and prefer the excitement of a guitar break, drum solo or vocal dexterity.

Some people say you've got to have a good "product" to get a song noticed - enter the "producers".........

Well I don't know - I kinda like this board the way it is - if someone wants to complain about my vocals being "pitchy" it don't bother me none I'm happy they listened and took time out - and it's probably a valid crit.

If I'm totally honest - I don't like a lot of what I hear and sometimes I force myself to make crits because of the 2-4 "rule" and I agree with SoddyB "who am I to criticise ?" - so a lot of my crits are not honest

Personally I like the idea of a simple "like or dislike" function so the listener doesn't have to say why he/she likes it and doesn't have to bother configuring some kind of "constructive comment" - everyone would do the same song differently anyway - advice on production might be best left for PMs ?

It'd be a good idea to have charts - like soundclick does - song comps are good but 15-20 voters (most of whom are "competing") - is hardly representative

But

If it ain't broke divvn't fix it - as they say round here

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 04:54 AM

i think music is all about opinions. I love dylan and neil young - lots of people i know can't stand them, don't think they can sing etc.

the critiques i find difficult are when the production and performance and everything is first class but the the song/music just does nothing for me.

i like to be moved by music either emotionally or intellectually. There's lots of stuff that might be technicallly great but i wouldn't choose to listen to it. but again thats down to personal taste and i suppose what you write for. i write for myself and stuff i like, others write to pitch and aim at a market - both are valid.

i like to hear people opinions and the advice i've recieved particularly on the production and arranging side of things have really improved my songs. I'm not a big fan of changing lyrics or music though and i won't if i like them, but i try to take things on board for future work. I tend to leave written songs written - then write some more. I naturally struggle to finish things anyway and like to move on quickly. if i was constantly rewriting i'd never finish anything!!!!
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Posted 07 April 2011 - 09:00 AM

Robby brings up a point that's always bothered me, judging production rather than the song. It's my opinion that many people who post crits can't tell the difference. They are unable to separate the song elements from the production elements. It's easy to see that in the song comps where the most professionally sounding productions usually win over better songs that are not as well produced.
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Posted 07 April 2011 - 09:53 AM

Don't give dishonest critiques. That hurts more than helps.
Saying nothing is better than lying about it.
I listen to songs as music and try not to analyze them, unless I have to.
Since lyrics don't have to make sense IMO, in order to have a successful song,
it's usually the way its performed that determines whether its good or not, to me.
Is a good song still a good song if its performed terribly? Not IMO.
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Posted 07 April 2011 - 10:18 AM

View PostRLD, on 07 April 2011 - 02:53 PM, said:

Don't give dishonest critiques. That hurts more than helps.
Saying nothing is better than lying about it.
I listen to songs as music and try not to analyze them, unless I have to.
Since lyrics don't have to make sense IMO, in order to have a successful song,
it's usually the way its performed that determines whether its good or not, to me.
Is a good song still a good song if its performed terribly? Not IMO.

i agree about the honesty of critiques. i tend to agree with robbie and daddio about the production when judging a song i know what rld means but i've some really crappy recordings - early versions, bootlegs etc where i think the power of the song shines through - some people may not hear the same thing as they can't get past the production. thats not to say that we shouldn't try to improve our production skills - i think you can even if you're into the less is more/lofi stuff

andy
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Posted 07 April 2011 - 10:33 AM

View Postdaddio, on 07 April 2011 - 07:00 AM, said:

Robby brings up a point that's always bothered me, judging production rather than the song.


The simple solution is to say, "ROUGH DEMO ONLY; PLEASE, NO COMMENTS ON PRODUCTION." Most of the stuff I post here is in really rough form, so I'm not interested production tips. It's recorded at home, and if it goes any further than a rough demo, it'll be done in a professional studio. I find it better to ask for comments on specific things: the melody, the arrangement, etc....

But I guess it depends why we post and what we hope to gain from it.

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 11:28 AM

The reason I don't post many songs here anymore is because I don't have any interest in making or receiving in-depth critiques (as required on the song board). When I post, I'm looking more for general/quick/instinctive observations (the kind a listener quickly makes if they like a song or not). I feel this is more valuable to me than detailed lyrical or production critiques. I feel that some of the critiques here tend to be too academic and over-thought-out.

Here's what I look for in a song critique:

  • First Thoughts — Like/Dislike
  • General theme — if the music & lyrics work well together
  • If it has a good hook
  • Any interesting suggestions — idea for a bridge or intro, etc.


Then based on the reviewer's musical tastes and biases I can decide how much of it to keep and what to disregard.

I guess production is important if it is not going to be produced further. People who are looking for detailed production or lyric critiques should ask for it IMO.

Of course, I also try not to be too harsh in my critiques — knowing that my musical tastes and biases generally dictate how I feel about a song. Is that dishonest? Probably. But IMO it's better to be encouraging here than to be too critical and discouraging. Also in the end, people tend to admire what they aspire towards — or the opposite. This is generally what you see in a critique.

Just my thoughts.

T

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 12:32 PM

View PostNeal K, on 07 April 2011 - 08:33 AM, said:

The simple solution is to say, "ROUGH DEMO ONLY; PLEASE, NO COMMENTS ON PRODUCTION." Most of the stuff I post here is in really rough form, so I'm not interested production tips. It's recorded at home, and if it goes any further than a rough demo, it'll be done in a professional studio. I find it better to ask for comments on specific things: the melody, the arrangement, etc....

Yep... most problems could be solved if folks say what they're looking for. Most don't it seems. Drives me crazy too!

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 01:46 PM

Yep. The problem, for me, is people posting and not asking what kind of advice or critique they want...if they don't, then it's all fair game in my opinion. Then they get hurt feelings because you mention their vocals are off-key.

The bigger a production is (or tries to be) the more it becomes part of the song. It's a lot easier to judge simply the song if it's a 1+1 production. When they start adding drums and keys and background vocals, they can either make or break an otherwise good song. Off-key vocals, a drum groove that doesn't fit the song, wanky guitar solos, etc...all take away from the listening experience and consequently, take away from the song.

If you don't care about production, then why bother trying to produce the song? Just record an acoustic demo and save yourself some time, especially if production means nothing in your grand scheme.
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Posted 07 April 2011 - 02:04 PM

View PostFunkDaddy, on 07 April 2011 - 11:46 AM, said:

If you don't care about production, then why bother trying to produce the song?


Because sometimes you're working out rough ideas at home before you get into the studio. So I'll do a full demo with an arrangment and all the parts - but it's like doing a sketch before doing a final drawing. I don't care if the guitars are panned to the left or right, or any of the sticky details. Working out arrangements at home can save big $$$ when you get to the professional studio.

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 03:01 PM

its not that i don't care about production i do - and from advice from funkdaddy and zeek in particular i've learned more than i thought i would - i still think you can hear a good song even if thats a bit of a mess!! i'm playing devils advocate a bit here i suppose, part of me hates the big production thing - but then i also enjoy the creativity of it!!!
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Posted 07 April 2011 - 03:18 PM

Everyone has different levels of talent. That said, it is absolutely IMPERATIVE that the poster declares EXACTLY what they want in a crit. If not, like Funk said, it's fair game. Couldn't be more simple in my eyes.

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 04:08 PM

Hi
I probably have to agree with Funk to a degree. I myself post for different reasons. Since I seldom do, I more or less will post a song for enjoyment. Its nice to get feedback of whether or not it was a good song. Some will nit about the mix or a line or two, but that's okay because I don't expect everyone to like it 100%. :)

By posting one of my songs, people get a better feel for who I am as a critiquer as well as a novice artist. Then they might get my point of view better when I say, "I dont think that would sing well." or " The story or plot isn't well thought out or doesn't seem to capture the imagination." I've had some people click on my myspace link or soundclick link and they then listen to my songs. By them listening to the my songs, they get a better feel for where I'm coming from as far as critiquing their lyric.

Again, I like giving out critiques when I have the time because I never know who I might run into as my next collaborator on a song idea. Again, I'm probably rambling off the subject here, but when I critique I try to give a point of view. Whether someone agrees with it or not is really up to them. Again, the more produced a song is, the higher the bar is raised for the critique. Because you are now putting flesh to the bones of the song. And for me, that's the fun part. I like listening to full songs because they have more character and life to them. Doesnt mean a sparsley arranged song cant have the same impact, but it depends on the genre and artist.

So, in closing, I guess when critiquing, just say up front if you liked it and what you thought was good. If you thought something doesn't sound right or jive, well....just say it. People are looking for feedback and that's why they post here.

just my two cents worth
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link below is an honorable mention from a national songwriting contest that I entered the song "Baby" that I wrote with the help of singnpeach on vocals and a couple lines for the lyrics she added. Not bad for a muse collaboration.

http://www.songofthe...JamesUpham.html

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 06:15 PM

i personally don't mind and don't take any offense to whatever is posted - i agree we should probably state whether we want comments on a particular parts of the song.

i like to leave it open - that way someone may come up with something i haven't thought of, whether i agree with them or not is irrelevant. i have the option and views of others.

i think i'm a contradiction - i love some under produced stuff - tonights the night's a great example. its rough, lots of flaws but it has a feel i love. as a rule i'd say i hate over produced music - but then i love late beatles, clever produced music - creatively produced music, eg radiohead i love.

these discussions are really difficult to put across what you mean in writing. a discussion in person would be much easier.

i propose a muses's muse trip to some idylic island paid for by sponsors where we all drink lots, and write lots!!!!

finally all i can ask is has my music improved since i came here ? - the answer is an unreserved YES.
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Posted 07 April 2011 - 06:33 PM

IMHO, putting any kind of limitation on the feedback one asks for is moving in the wrong direction. There are several reasons for this:

1. There is no bad information. So what if it focuses on something you're not? It forces you to confront what's important.

2. It's not the critiques themselves so much as the process that matters. Listening to other people's work and comparing it to your own makes you a better artist. Decoding what you do that elicits certain kinds of responses is of paramount importance.

3. People are doing this for free, in their spare time. It's volunteer work to make you a better artist. Many people go _way_ outside their genre to listen to your stuff. They're not expecting anything in return, except maybe that you return the favor (a naive expectation, at that). If they had anything to say about it at all, you should listen.

4. Even if people don't criticize your work to your face, you can absolutely count on it happening in people's minds. Nobody's work is universally revered. To actually get an honest opinion is a _privilege_. It hardly ever happens.

...addressing some earlier posts now...

6. Anyone who makes art seriously should be familiarize themselves with the "I rule" / "I suck" cycle. If a critique pushes you from one pole to the other, as an artist you'd better get used to that.

7. If you're lucky enough for any significant number of people to hear your work, it quickly becomes very likely that someone will tell you to your face, in so many words, that you suck. If you can't hack it here, it's not going to get easier.

8. Lastly, and sorry for the tough love, but if you're the kind of person where criticism is going to make you discouraged, withdraw or quit, you weren't going to make it anyway. Success favors the persistent.


Speaking to no one in particular: I don't know about you, but I'm begging for as much information as possible- positive, negative, shallow, deep... more more more. As an artist on their own, there are not many places where you can get the kind of feedback from other artists that you need to grow. And without it, we're all just fumbling around in the dark. All this contemplation about how best to walk on eggshells... why?

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 06:38 PM

View Postdcaudell, on 07 April 2011 - 11:33 PM, said:

IMHO, putting any kind of limitation on feedback is moving in the wrong direction. There are several reasons for this:

1. There is no bad information. So what if it focuses on something you're not; It forces you to confront what's important.

2. It's not the critiques themselves so much as the process that matters. Listening to other people's work and comparing it to your own makes you a better artist. Decoding what you do that elicits certain kinds of responses is of paramount importance.

3. People are doing this for free, in their spare time. It's volunteer work to make you a better artist. Many people go _way_ outside their genre to listen to your stuff. They're not expecting anything in return, except maybe that you return the favor (a naive expectation, at that). If they had anything to say about it at all, you should listen.

4. Even if people don't criticize your work to your face, you can absolutely count on it happening in people's minds. Nobody's work is universally revered. To actually get an honest opinion is a _privilege_. It hardly ever happens.

...addressing some earlier posts now...

6. Anyone who makes art seriously should be familiarize themselves with the "I rule" / "I suck" cycle. If a critique pushes you from one pole to the other, as an artist you'd better get used to that.

7. If you're lucky enough for any significant number of people to hear your work, it quickly becomes very likely that someone will tell you to your face, in so many words, that you suck. If you can't hack it here, it's not going to get easier.

8. Lastly, and sorry for the tough love, but if you're the kind of person where criticism is going to make you discouraged, withdraw or quit, you weren't going to make it anyway. Success favors the persistent.


Speaking to no one in particular: I don't know about you, but I'm begging for as much information as possible- positive, negative, shallow, deep... more more more. As an artist on their own, there are not many places where you can get the kind of feedback from other artists that you need to grow. And without it, we're all just fumbling around in the dark. All this contemplation about how best to walk on eggshells... why?


well i think this sums up a lot of what i've been trying to say far more eloquently!! I value all feedback, but critiscism doesn't bother me - whether i act on it or not is up to me, but it always make me think. this is a great thread and is what makes the board great!!
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Posted 08 April 2011 - 07:20 AM

Quote

'blindcommissioner'
its not that i don't care about production i do - and from advice from funkdaddy and zeek in particular i've learned more than i thought i would.


Why thank you kind sir!

Another thing is that a critique will usually mirror the level of talent of the one critiquing. So if someone is just starting out writing songs and has not yet developed their style then "usually" their crit won't be as informative or as useful. Not dismissing them at all, you just have to take each critique from where it's coming from. And of course you keep that to yourself. You wouldn't post back "what do you know--you just started"--of course not. You match the critique with the person critiquing and take what you want from it. You have to be confident enough in your own ability and style to know what to use and what to discard. That's tougher for some, easier for others.

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 08:55 AM

View PostRLD, on 07 April 2011 - 10:53 AM, said:

it's usually the way its performed that determines whether its good or not, to me.
Is a good song still a good song if its performed terribly? Not IMO.


I'm not sure I can agree with this. What you seem to be saying is that if I give the same song to two different performers and one does a great job while the other sucks, then it's a good song and a bad song too? It's the same song. Great production and great performance can make a bad song listenable, sometimes even make it a hit, but a bad song is a bad song is a bad song. Just because the performance is good doesn't mean the song is too.
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#88 User is offline   thomasitty Icon

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 10:49 AM

We can debate good song/bad song and song/production here forever.

The truth is that it is all very subjective. I have seen songs that I felt were bad or mediocre given great reviews and win contests here. What does that prove — nothing other than that a certain group of people like it. Is the song bad because I don't like it -- most probably not.

Does learning the craft of songwriting make you a great songwriter? Remember that some of the best songs we know have been written by 17-24 year olds without any concern for craft, rules or structure. As they get older and try harder, and learn to play better and understand the rules of music, etc. their songs get worse. Go figure!! People who go to writing workshops rarely write novels that are original or good.

Good song, bad song.... if a lot of people like it (different from getting hits on YouTube) then it's good in my books.

Good production is always preferred to bad production. Good vocals to bad vocals. Good playing to bad. Just makes it easier to know the intent of the songwriter and easier to listen to. However, it hard when it's just a hobby and you don't want to spend any bucks or have the ability to play/produce any better.

Also, for most of the people here, songwriting is a passion and a hobby. In this context, it is fun to analyze, critique, dissect, talk music, instrumentation, etc. However, to think by doing it one could be transformed into a great songwriter is probably just wishful thinking.

My point: Be kind when you critique, you're not that far ahead of everyone else here... or you wouldn't be here.

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 11:27 AM

Quote

My point: Be kind when you critique, you're not that far ahead of everyone else here... or you wouldn't be here.



The proverbial nail on the head. Nicely done.

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 11:43 AM

> it's a good song and a bad song too? It's the same song. ... a bad song is a bad song

A song is either good or bad? You an objectivist, daddio? ;)

> good song writer... bad song writer... great song writer

(All this makes me want to scream, "It's not the song, FFS!")

Songs by themselves aren't good or bad, I don't think. (Performances or recordings, yes. Songs no.)

Rather they are easier or more difficult to pull off. You could say that a song is almost impossible to pull off, and thus a bad song...
but then again, very occasionally someone manages, and then it's something to behold. Conversely, even the "best" songs are sometimes butchered.

Also, songs can be more or less likely to be appreciated. This has a sociological & temporal component to it as well.
But music that is unlikely to be popular can sometimes be deeply appreciated by a small group of people.

Nice thing about this forum is we don't submit sheet music and lyrics (songs). We submit recordings. So it's easy to do a very useful critique, regardless of one's skill level:

- "Wow. I liked this (you pulled it off). I liked part x and instrument y."
- "You didn't pull this off. You came close, though. Maybe if you fixed x or y..."
- "Wow. You failed. You're so far from pulling this off in my mind that you basically have to change everything. I think the unrecoverable problem is..."

I'm guessing that because there's a lot of cross pollination between here and the lyrics forums (where one critiques whether a set of lyrics 'would be good' as a recording) that there's an inclination to critique whether a recording 'would be good' as something else...

But the rubber has hit the road here. Even a good work tape stands by itself. Not speaking to anyone specifically, if you think your work sounds bad just because of low production value, you're kidding yourself. Go listen to Donnamarylin's "Take off the noose". It's near the top of the forum right now. That is what a work in progress _should_ sound like.

But again... all this seems like a lot of noise. Personally, I'd prefer to get as many unfiltered impressions from the listener as possible while they're listening, rather than have people filtering their feedback for any reason. I'm with Zeek. I'm happy to decode people's feedback, match it to what I know about them as an artist, etc; figure out what I did that caused their opinion. Actually, it's sounding more and more like a fundamental skill to me.

Which leads back to the topic header, and FD's original beef: We need more information. That means more critiques and more detail in them. We should be encouraging people to write as much as possible as openly as possible. What the best strategy is to encourage this remains to be seen. I think it starts with:

"I don't care what your skill level is. I don't care what the focus is. Your opinion is important. Forget about my feelings, I want to hear yours. Details if you've got the time. Thank you for listening."

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 02:00 PM

When I post, I feel similarly to dcaudell.

Feedback is feedback.

If I play live - let's say in a bar - the people who don't listen are giving me feedback as much as those who do.

When people do listen, they listen differently. Some will listen closely to a lyric, while others won't care about the words. Some may care only for rhythm or for the tone of a guitar or a vocal. Often, I may get feedback on aspects that had never occurred to me (because those parts are just "background" to me). It's all useful information. While tastes vary, it doesn't take too long around here to work out what people's tastes are and to filter their responses accordingly, sorting out what is most relevant in terms of what we are trying to achieve in a song.

I (recently) decided not to mention aspects of the song that bother me. That is because, if I mention them, people will focus on them and raise points that may not have been an issue had I not drawn attention to them. If I don't mention those aspects, and they ARE an issue, someone will comment anyway.

However, if someone posts a song and has something specific that they want feedback on, I do agree that it is well worth saying so.

For myself, I just want to hear what people think and to pick up information from the different perspectives they bring to listening.

It is, of course, nice to hear what is worthwhile about a song/recording as well as any failings - but I'm mostly posting to see what to look out for (probably in my next song) or what to work on in a mix.

If a song isn't working, it's helpful to be told what isn't working and why (in the opinion of the critiquer). Equally, if a song IS working, it's helpful to be told why!

And yes, I do think encouragement is important. I don't think that needs to be at the expense of honesty. There is surely something to commend and encourage on every song posted, after all.
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Posted 12 April 2011 - 12:38 PM

View Postdaddio, on 08 April 2011 - 02:55 PM, said:

View PostRLD, on 07 April 2011 - 10:53 AM, said:

it's usually the way its performed that determines whether its good or not, to me.
Is a good song still a good song if its performed terribly? Not IMO.


I'm not sure I can agree with this. What you seem to be saying is that if I give the same song to two different performers and one does a great job while the other sucks, then it's a good song and a bad song too? It's the same song. Great production and great performance can make a bad song listenable, sometimes even make it a hit, but a bad song is a bad song is a bad song. Just because the performance is good doesn't mean the song is too.


I'm with Daddio 100% - not that I disagree with RLD - I see where he's comin from too

Songwriters are panning for gold and IMO (which is often wrong I admit) there are songs out there that are just GOOD and they sound good when Shane just sings them when he's pissed somewhere. There's a guy who gets up at an open mic I go to and he always does "Rocket Man" and not particularly well but it has some magic - I'm not sayin ALL the magic is in the song but people just love it

Some songs bring tears to your eyes and make you tingle - some kind of emotional response and you just CANNOT get that with a good production alone

I know lottsa people who say the words are meaningless and they never listen - but they DO - they matter loads - words give you so many "edges" - the effect of (say) an aggressive song is de-emphasised without words to match.

I would say that in the modern era "perfect" productions where everything is airbrushed to perfection de-emphasise a song. Similarly, big solos and musical dexterity can de-emphasise a song.

Personally, I get loads more pleasure from "recordings" of people or bands playing music than I get from something that's taken months in the studio

Try Chet Baker's version of "Somewhere Over The Rainbow"
or the Witmark Recordings

Take "Highway 61 Revisited" - it's a great band knockin out great songs with a great singer - "live" not "produced" - Tom Wilson/Bob Johnston were "tape rollers" and "musician hirers" and they all played together (i.e. in the studio at the same time ! LIVE) - you gotta wait until (I dunno) - the late 80s - before Bob Dylan overdubbed a vocal

New York Columbia Studio A June 15 1965 Take 4 = perfection

You will NEVER get that from a "produced" song NEVER NEVER NEVER phuckin NEVER !!

Steely Dan can wheel in guitar player after guitar player after guitar player after guitar player and take their favourite solo and paste it in, file down all the corners, gate all the drums, get the best snare and kick sounds you ever heard and ever will hear - BUT it will NEVER match up

Good songs - good singers - live performance is where it's at man - go listen to some Frank Sinatra

(Course I could be wrong - I usually am !)

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 01:04 PM

View Postthomasitty, on 08 April 2011 - 08:49 AM, said:

Remember that some of the best songs we know have been written by 17-24 year olds without any concern for craft, rules or structure. As they get older and try harder, and learn to play better and understand the rules of music, etc. their songs get worse. Go figure!!


This is an interesting point, and worth discussing in another forum. I don't believe those young artists have no concern about rules for the craft - even the big hits of today follow most of the rules and structure of the past. But I wonder why many musical artists seem to peak while they are young, while other artists (novelists, painters, etc.) just get better and better as they age.

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 01:46 PM

i agree with a lot of what robbie is saying. sometimes when somethings are too polished it just sucks out all the emotion. this is the same with muscianship and production, however there has to be a decent level of both for it not to ruin the song too. I'd love to be able to record everything live but as a solo artist i have to use computer generated musicians. while they can sound good - it'll never match the warmth of real people playing.

neals point about artists and their creative peak is also very interesting. one of few artists i like who's latter work i prefer is johnny cash. i thought the american recordings he did were his best work and i love his early stuff too. Maybe its the pressure, the fame of it all. writers and painters usually don't have the same level of fame as popular recording artists.
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Posted 11 June 2012 - 05:57 PM

View PostFunkDaddy, on 07 June 2010 - 04:34 PM, said:

Here on the Song Critiques board, as most of you know, there is a 2-4 critique per posting of your own song rule. And I wanted to discuss some points with ya'll.

First, when people post very short 1-2 sentence "Hey good job" replies to a song post, it is my opinion that that DOESN'T constitute a critique and for many people is merely a loophole so they aren't breaking the 2-4 critique rule. Should this be an enforced rule? I think it's lame and people should put some effort into critiquing the songs before they post their own. I realize there are sometimes when all you can really do is give kudos, but my point is...that shouldn't count as far as the 2-4 rule.

Secondly, when people bump their song posts after a long time, say 3+ weeks, should that require another 2-4 critiques? It seems like another loophole to me.


Why have rules? If I post a subject and don't subsequently post critiques, eventually I will be ignored, unless my subjects are so outstanding that I am overrun with replies (I wish).
Isn't a community like this self regulating anyway? I rule, NO MORE RULES.
Vic

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 06:14 PM

I don't think there are specific rules like you say Vic -The 'do this # of reviews per track is a guideline really..And -for the reasons you give -it seems to be pretty self regulating..

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 07:06 PM

View Postvicarn, on 11 June 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:

View PostFunkDaddy, on 07 June 2010 - 04:34 PM, said:

Here on the Song Critiques board, as most of you know, there is a 2-4 critique per posting of your own song rule. And I wanted to discuss some points with ya'll.

First, when people post very short 1-2 sentence "Hey good job" replies to a song post, it is my opinion that that DOESN'T constitute a critique and for many people is merely a loophole so they aren't breaking the 2-4 critique rule. Should this be an enforced rule? I think it's lame and people should put some effort into critiquing the songs before they post their own. I realize there are sometimes when all you can really do is give kudos, but my point is...that shouldn't count as far as the 2-4 rule.

Secondly, when people bump their song posts after a long time, say 3+ weeks, should that require another 2-4 critiques? It seems like another loophole to me.


Why have rules? If I post a subject and don't subsequently post critiques, eventually I will be ignored, unless my subjects are so outstanding that I am overrun with replies (I wish).
Isn't a community like this self regulating anyway? I rule, NO MORE RULES.
Vic


2 years ago. People were complaining about it. I started a discussion. I'm not a moderator anymore. I don't care and haven't cared for a long time. Toodles!
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Posted 16 June 2012 - 08:42 PM

View PostFunkDaddy, on 12 June 2012 - 12:06 AM, said:

View Postvicarn, on 11 June 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:

View PostFunkDaddy, on 07 June 2010 - 04:34 PM, said:

Here on the Song Critiques board, as most of you know, there is a 2-4 critique per posting of your own song rule. And I wanted to discuss some points with ya'll.

First, when people post very short 1-2 sentence "Hey good job" replies to a song post, it is my opinion that that DOESN'T constitute a critique and for many people is merely a loophole so they aren't breaking the 2-4 critique rule. Should this be an enforced rule? I think it's lame and people should put some effort into critiquing the songs before they post their own. I realize there are sometimes when all you can really do is give kudos, but my point is...that shouldn't count as far as the 2-4 rule.

Secondly, when people bump their song posts after a long time, say 3+ weeks, should that require another 2-4 critiques? It seems like another loophole to me.


Why have rules? If I post a subject and don't subsequently post critiques, eventually I will be ignored, unless my subjects are so outstanding that I am overrun with replies (I wish).
Isn't a community like this self regulating anyway? I rule, NO MORE RULES.
Vic


2 years ago. People were complaining about it. I started a discussion. I'm not a moderator anymore. I don't care and haven't cared for a long time. Toodles!

Goodbye

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 06:17 AM

I found this thread very helpful in understanding what others are thinking and looking for and confirming some of my own thoughts.
I hope to be one who learns moving forward and better able to give helpful comments.
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