[NigeQ]

**** See further down thread for results ****

Welcome to the Musesmuse June song comp

Jun: 7 - 12 (enter) Jun 13 - 16 (scorecards)

This is an open format competition which means you can have as much instrumentation/production as you like.
If you are thinking of entering please check the Rules first
Full schedule for the year and 2010 results so far can be found here

Post:

• song title
  
• writer credits (If it’s a collab with another muser please make that clear by including their muser id)
  
• audio link

Note, if you have joined the Muse since 1st May 2010 you are ineligible to enter or vote in this particular competition

You have until Jun 12 to get your entry in.

16. How do you score/rate/grade songs?

You rate each song from 1 - 10 (where 1 is poor and 10 is excellent)
Note that only one 10 and one 9 score can be awarded per voter or the scorecard will be invalid.
If a scorecard contains a score not a whole number in the range of 1 to 10 it will be deemed invalid.

If you really need it spelling out I suggest you watch this

[starsinmyeyes]

Silence
Words by starsinmyeyes/Music by Michael Vitt

Silence

V1
I just want to be silent
Listen to the nothingness between us.
Nothing but silence
Cool silence.

Chorus A
'Cause you can't hurt me noiselessly
I stay here - yet still retreat
And you can't say what you don't mean
In silence.

V2
I just want to be silent
Please I need it deafeningly silent.
I didn't say 'sentence'.
Soft silence.

Mmm...

Chorus B
The shock waves force my world apart
Your earthquakes echo through my heart
Recovery can only start
With silence.

Bridge
You've said it all, and you've done it all
The slapping words, and crumbling walls.
Exploding heads need time to heal...
Surprising what silence reveals...
No no no

Out Chorus A
No You can't hurt me noiselessly
I stay here - yet still retreat
You can't remind me you're a cheat
In silence.

[kimberlyinnc]

A Collaboration!
Lyrics-Kimberlyinnc and musefrommichigan
(Kimberly Hales Kime and Ann Mayo Muir)
Music and vocals-Ann Mayo Muir


Younger Days

Sunflowers with shiny faces
Swaying in the breeze
Call up from forgotten places
Sleeping memories

The scent of honeysuckle
And the sight of Queen Anne's lace
Walking hand in hand
Feeling my heart race

Chorus
If you're in the mood
And love the good ole' ways
Come with me and we'll return
To those younger days

Bridge
Sit a spell and we can spend some perfect hours
We'll spread our blanket and share some homemade wine
You build a fire, while I gather wildflowers
Beneath the Carolina sun and the longleaf pine

Chorus
If you're in the mood
And love the good ole' ways
Come with me and we'll return
To those younger days

With our toes splashing in the water
Kicking up showers
Keeping cool by the river's edge
Playing there for hours

We'd get out our fishing gear
As the sun dipped low
the fish biting, the fire lighting
would make our hunger grow

Bridge
We can relax together as the day unwinds
Let the music of katydids open up our minds
And if you put your hand in mine
We can do what Katy does
Blending with the afternoon and the way it was

If you're in the mood
And love the good ole' ways
Come with me and we'll return
To those younger days

Tag
Come with me and we'll return
To those younger days

© 2010 All Rights Reserved
Kimberly Hales Kime/Ann Mayo Muir

[Zeek]

Words & Music by Nat Sisco (Zeek)

http://soundclick.co...?songid=9249375

First Time Love

Verse 1
I got the radio on and a sky full of blue
Ain't nothin' gonna come along to ruin my mood
Last night my baby and me said those three little words
Can't think of any other time I felt this good

Verse 2
It's only been a few months--I never want it to end
'Cause everytime I'm with her feels as right as the rain
We're like two peas in a pod--attached at the hip
I tried to tell her 'bout my heart but she got to me first

Chorus
(she said)
It's love love love yeah there ain't no doubt
Can you hear my heart beating loud
I'm in love love love someone turned on a switch
A little shot of lightning every time we kiss
Never wanna get over this
Feels like I'm dreaming my first time love

Verse 3
Now we're shopping for rings, she went and bought a white dress
Even my buddies tell me that this girl's a nice little catch
We may be moving to fast--no time for a breath
If anybody's got a doubt here's what I say

Chorus
It's love love love yeah there ain't no doubt
Can you hear my heart beating loud
I'm in love love love someone turned on a switch
A little shot of lightning every time we kiss
Never wanna get over this
Feels like I'm dreaming my first time love

Bridge
love...are we the only ones in love
Nobody else around but the two of us
Yeah we're in love

Chorus
It's love love love yeah there ain't no doubt
Can you hear my heart beating loud
I'm in love love love someone turned on a switch
A little shot of lightning every time we kiss
Never wanna get over this
Feels like I'm dreaming my first time love

[Thinman]

Hi - me again

Thanks for listening

Robby

http://soundclick.co...?songid=9253421

Red Haired Girl
© ANeckenderMusic 2008




(Verse 1)
There are things that I remember, there are things that I forget
Forty years and forty days are gone and even yet
I remember bright and dusty days when sunshine filled the world
An English class I never passed and a pretty redhaired girl.

(Verse 2)
There’s lessons that I never learned - mysteries unbroken
Friendships that I never earned - Words I wish I’d spoken
I wish I’d written poetry with honest words like pearls
In a note that I never wrote for a pretty red haired girl

(Middle Bit)
There's a golden light
And it still shines
but only in the past
Now long old nights
Take all my time
as ghostly memories last
Of light I stole for a shadow
I never meant to cast

(Verse 3)
There’s songs that I played for you - alone in a coffee bar
I watched you run so fast - and saw you run so far
Well the coffee cup is empty but the Wurlitzer still whirls
As I got only memories of a pretty redhaired girl.

(End Bit)
Your tears fell like rain - and I'm sorry
It's a stain - on my memory
But then that's just people for you
They say they want you - or even need you
But they will **** you - before they love you
And then they leave you - before they know you
So don't cry for - what they've done
Just wait for - the right one
No matter how long

[FunkDaddy]

The Darkness Fades
by Mark Smith

It's 4am and once again, I'm in heaven
If for nothing but, the simple love of being beside you
There's no moonlight tonight
The darkness fades
In your face

The night is gone, soon enough, in the sky
The sunrise, in your eyes, washing over me
As the night turns to day, I must say
The darkness fades
In your face

It will come again
Will you chase it away again
Or will it be the end

7am, as sure as I am, in love
The sunrise, in your eyes, is enough
To tell me I should be beside you
As the darkness fades
In your face

© Sleepy McGee Music

[SoddyBottoms]

Words and music by Soddy Bottoms

Yin and the Yang the Black and the White


Curse you devil.... you've made me bleed

broke my heart made me get up and leave.

you made me cry all thru the night

and never lent a hand to make things right


When it goes your way you put us in the ground

your days a comin and your goin down.

Some say your end's at the hand of Christ

I dont really care as long as you die.


never too soon if your askin me

you evil SOB how'd you ever come to be

Hey the sick sad and lonely gonna stand up and cheer

Would we be better off with you no longer here


hey the strangest thing I cant say why

it's the yin and the yang the black and the white

I can speak my mind but that won't make it right

Up is down Lord shine me some light


what goods a laugh if you've never cried

it's an ugly old frown that gives value to a smile

the strangest thing... I don't why

it's the yin and the yang the black and the white


copyright 2010 all rights reserved

[Neal K]

Tumble Weed
By Neal K

She comes and she goes
And when she comes she comes
And when she goes she knows
She can always come around again
She's that kind of friend

She kind of rolls into town
And when she rolls we roll
Around and around
But she never leaves her shoes on the mat
And I like it like that

She's not my girlfriend
She's just a Tumbleweed
I'm not her boyfriend
I'm just a Pumpkin seed
She's not my woman, not my wife
Not the love of my life
But she gives me what I need
She's my pretty little, flirty little
Dirty little Tumbleweed

You know a Tumbleweed blows
Where the wind makes it go
So if she never comes back
There's something that I gotta admit
I'd kind of miss her a bit

She's not my girlfriend
She's just a Tumbleweed
I'm not her boyfriend
I'm just a Pumpkin seed
She's not my woman, not my wife
Not the love of my life
But she gives me what I need
She's my pretty little, flirty little
Dirty little Tumbleweed

[daddio]

Don't Trust That Summertime Smile
by SatanInventedBras & daddio

When Becky met Jimmy
She was 16 and goin' bad
Jimmy was her ticket out
Didn't know he was bein' had
Becky took her Daddy's money
Jimmy took the blame
They hit the road like outlaws
She loved that danger game

Chorus
Don't trust her summertime smile
Don't think she's the love of your life
Look past those curved lips and
See that cold, cold heart of ice

They hit town after town
Becky lit up each bar
She'd find a nice guy
While Jimmy waited in the car
She'd lure them out with a promise
Pleasure in the night
Sometimes they'd just take a wallet
Sometimes she'd take a life

Bridge
But then one night she met Tommy
And fell for his big brown eyes
He offered a reckless forever
She knew Jimmy had to die

[DonnaMarilyn]

What Colour Is Love (Rock version)

Donna Devine (DonnaMarilyn): Lyrics/ Valerie Cox (weirdrelatives): Music/Arrangement/Guitar & Vocals/ Billy Playle: Bass & Mix

(v1)
There's the grey fog of grief
Of the grim disbelief
When you've lost once again
What was dear to your heart
Or the steel-blue of pain
When the tears want to start
But...

Chorus
In the dark shades of night
When sleep has long gone
And thoughts overwhelm me
As the hours grind along
Can anyone tell me
What colour is love?

(v2)
There's the umber of sadness
Deep-space black of madness
Or white gold left behind
By stars that have died
Or the purple of violence
That so many will hide

Bridge
Perhaps it's the mixed box of crayons
A lonely child holds in its hand
As it carefully fills in the contours
Of a family in fairytale land

(v3)
There's the beige of old-fashioned
Or the wine-red of passion
When blood starts to pound
And emotions run deep
Or the pearl-silver silence
As you watch a child sleep
But...

Chorus
In the dark shades of night
When sleep has long gone
And thoughts overwhelm me
As the hours grind along
Can anyone tell me
What colour is love?

Outro
Does love have a colour?
Or a sound we can sing?
And if love has a colour
Is it in Everything?

[NigeQ]

Closed for entries - Scoring begins:

We have 9 entries this month

All of the songs can be heard here at Musesmuse June 2010 Station

To be eligible to score you must have been a member of Musesmuse prior to 1st May 2010 and have a minimum of 25 posts.

Please send your scores to me via PM and put “Song Comp Votes” in the subject. You should receive confirmation within 24 hours or at least by the time scoring closes.

Please score each song from 1 to 10 (please rate them in the order listed below)

You rate each song from 1 - 10 (where 1 is poor and 10 is excellent)
Note that only one 10 and one 9 score can be awarded per voter, or the scorecard will be invalid

If a scorecard contains a score not a whole number in the range of 1 to 10 it will be deemed invalid.

Contestants do not score their own song, they will receive an average of the score they award other songs (see rule 13a)

The songs are:

Silence - starsinmyeyes
Younger Days - kimberlyinnc/musefrommichigan
First Time Love - Zeek
Red Haired Girl - Thinman
The Darkness Fades - FunkDaddy
Yin and the Yang the Black and the White - SoddyBottoms
Tumble Weed - Neal K
Don't Trust That Summertime Smile - SatanInventedBras/daddio
What Colour Is Love - DonnaMarilyn/weirdrelatives


You have until Wed 16th Jun to get your scores in. I will post the results the next day

[NigeQ]

Scoring Update

11 scorecards in, 4 of which are non-contestants

There are 3 songs in the shake up here, all of them averaging over 7.

One song is close to breaking into the top 3

The lowest song is averaging over 5.5, so it’s all pretty congested.

3 contestants still to vote

There! I hope that’s cleared it all up for you

[NigeQ]

Here is the result of the June Comp:

1st - Tumble Weed - Neal K

2nd - First Time Love - Zeek

22 scorecards. 11 non-contestant voters were: NigeQ, jonie, Merlin, graybeard, garymc, Simple Simon, RKG, Salley Gardens, Bruce N, skingswell & bubblingsoul

Full result

Tumble Weed - Neal K 7.68av
7 10 8 9 8 7 7 6 8 8 8 9 9 7 7 7 9 6 9 7 7 6
First Time Love - Zeek 7.27av
8 7 9 8 7 6 5 8 7 7 7 10 8 9 7 7 6 4 8 9 6 7
Don't Trust That Summertime Smile - SatanInventedBras/daddio 7.09av
8 9 7 7 9 6 7 7 9 7 7 7 8 6 7 4 8 6 8 6 7 6
What Colour Is Love - DonnaMarilyn/weirdrelatives 6.91av
4 8 8 6 6 7 6 7 6 9 7 8 7 7 8 5 7 9 7 6 7 7
Silence - starsinmyeyes 6.33av
6 4 5 4 6 6 5 5 8 7 8 6 8 8 5 10 4 6 8 6 8
The Darkness Fades - FunkDaddy 6.14av
4 4 6 6 5 5 6 6 8 5 10 7 6 6 5 4 7 10 7 6 6 6
Red Haired Girl - Thinman 6.09av
5 5 7 3 6 6 3 4 10 7 9 7 7 7 6 6 8 4 6 5 6 7
Younger Days - kimberlyinnc/musefrommichigan 6.00av
6 4 10 5 6 6 5 5 7 4 6 7 7 6 5 5 8 8 4 6 5 7
Yin and the Yang the Black and the White - SoddyBottoms 5.86av
5 6 6 5 5 5 4 9 8 5 7 8 6 7 6 3 6 5 6 6 5 6


Tumble Weed and First Time Love qualify for the year-end final. Congratulations!! Get ready to post in the 2010 - Song Competitions thread which is pinned on this board.

Thanks to all who took part either by entering or voting. Especially those 11 non-contestants!!

Next comp will be the July 1+1 run by FunkDaddy

Nige

[FunkDaddy]

Congrats Neal and Zeek! I scored the top 2 the same. Really good tunes. Actually it appears I scored the top 4 the same as they placed if I'm not mistaken.

Nice to see the two 10's and an 8 there. A little disappointed with my average to be honest, I thought this song would be popular with the Muse crowd. Maybe I should just accept that I don't write for this audience. I know I know, the contests are for fun but I'm also trying to discipline myself to write to/for a specific audience, maybe the Muse is just too eclectic and varied.

[Neal K]

Wow - hey, thanks for everyone who scored my lyric so high. I didn't do so good picking this month's crop. I thought Soddy's entry was great. Zeek's entry and SIB/Daddio's entry also got high marks from me. And just so you know - Tumbleweed isn't based on true story. I'm happly married.

Neal

[daddio]

I gave DonnaMarilyn and Weirdrelatives my top vote. A lot of the songs were very close in my mind and their lyric put it over the top. I had Neal in second place followed by a three way time for third between starsinmyeyes, thinman, and Zeek. As I said, I thought all the songs were very close.
Congrats to the winners! Thanks to Nige for running the comp and all the voters especially the non-contestants. These comps are always fun.

[SoddyBottoms]

Congrats Guys ! I picked the winners but in opposite order gave Zeek my 10 and Neal my 9 It was a toss up both were top shelf .....

[DonnaMarilyn]

Congratulations indeed! Neal got my top vote, with Zeek and SIB/daddio vying for second place.

All in all, though, a good selection of songs. Lots of variety.

Donna

[weirdrelatives]

I forgot Donna said she was going to enter our song in this comp. I would have voted had I been more up on reality. Sorry.

The entries this month were fantastic!
Love the awesome retro euro-pop sound on starsinmyeyes song. Wildly cool! Brings me right back to the day. Gen X, represent! All the songs were strong though. I see why Neal's song won. What a rocker!

[SoddyBottoms]

FunkDaddy, on 17 June 2010 - 03:38 PM, said:

Nice to see the two 10's and an 8 there. A little disappointed with my average to be honest, I thought this song would be popular with the Muse crowd. Maybe I should just accept that I don't write for this audience. I know I know, the contests are for fun but I'm also trying to discipline myself to write to/for a specific audience, maybe the Muse is just too eclectic and varied.

I wouldn't worry about that , it's pretty obvious some of the voting is to gain advantage for favorites. Example Zeek got a 4 on his , That was a pretty polished pc of work and was no way a 4 in comparison to the lot ... I saw another that was what I

considered to be the worst of the lot get a 10 from a voter.. I was nice to everyone this month I didn't score anything less than a 7... Watch out next month ! I know who the lo lifes are ahahahaha

Don't sweat it man , we're all corrupt.. Like I said in another post.. We are on a wet rock in the middle of nowhere , we are genetically defective creatures who don't play well with others ahahahaha


Here's the monthly can of worms.. The practical and elusive fair scoring system.. example 12 or 25 contestants the # doesn't matter.. Vote them #1 as your favorite in order to your least favorite being at the end.. Just like a top 10 except it could be a top 13 or whatever... throw out the top and bottom votes for each contestant and then The song with the lowest score wins... this is much harder to to manipulate...

[Zeek]

Many thanks! Did not expect it for the song I entered. Great job all!!

Zeek

[Zeek]

SoddyBottoms, on 17 June 2010 - 04:23 PM, said:

Congrats Guys ! I picked the winners but in opposite order gave Zeek my 10

Thanks Sod...check's in the mail.

[Zeek]

Quote

I wouldn't worry about that , it's pretty obvious some of the voting is to gain advantage for favorites. Example Zeek got a 4 on his , That was a pretty polished pc of work and was no way a 4 in comparison to the lot ...

Thanks (again) Sod---yeah that 4 threw me a bit but whatever. I though 4th place would have been okay for me because of the competition so 2nd was sweet. I NEVER give anyone less than a 5. I figure if they make a decent effort, and everyone does as long as I've been here, then that 5 is deserved of their work in getting their best stuff out there...and that's whether or not they are a beginner or more polished.

Keep pumping them out Mark--good stuff will always rise to the top.

Zeek

[Thinman]

Thinman is grateful to all those who listened and voted !!

I'm not giving up so easy - July is a good month for me.

Hey NigeQ - what am I missing ? 11 civilians plus 8 contestant votes should be 19 votes per entry ?

Cheers

Robby

[Salley Gardens]

Congrats, Neal and Zeek for placing, and to everyone for another fine crop of songs!

[NigeQ]

Thinman, on 18 June 2010 - 10:31 AM, said:

Hey NigeQ - what am I missing ? 11 civilians plus 8 contestant votes should be 19 votes per entry ?

There were 9 contestants, but some were collabs so the contestant tally can be more than the number of songs.

In this particular comp kimberlyinnc/musefrommichigan both scored the songs and so did daddio/SatanInventedBras - so that makes 22

[DonnaMarilyn]

NigeQ, on 18 June 2010 - 08:19 PM, said:

Thinman, on 18 June 2010 - 10:31 AM, said:

Hey NigeQ - what am I missing ? 11 civilians plus 8 contestant votes should be 19 votes per entry ?

There were 9 contestants, but some were collabs so the contestant tally can be more than the number of songs.

In this particular comp kimberlyinnc/musefrommichigan both scored the songs and so did daddio/SatanInventedBras - so that makes 22

That's interesting, Nige. Good to know. For some reason, I thought that with multiple collaborators, only one person - the poster - was allowed to score. Hence, because I uploaded What Colour is Love just minutes after my return from Canada (and a couple of hours before the song deadline), I didn't contact Val when it was time to begin posting scores the following day. (Sorry about that, Val.)

Donna

[Neal K]

DonnaMarilyn, on 18 June 2010 - 01:49 PM, said:

For some reason, I thought that with multiple collaborators, only one person - the poster - was allowed to score.

According to the rules, at least one of the collaborators is required to submit scores but there is no reason why all the collaborators cannot submit scores if they want to.

Neal

[DonnaMarilyn]

Neal K, on 18 June 2010 - 11:00 PM, said:

DonnaMarilyn, on 18 June 2010 - 01:49 PM, said:

For some reason, I thought that with multiple collaborators, only one person - the poster - was allowed to score.

According to the rules, at least one of the collaborators is required to submit scores but there is no reason why all the collaborators cannot submit scores if they want to.

Neal

I'm glad that's cleared up, Neal. I'll be on the ball next time.

Donna

[Bruce N]

Congratulations Neal, excellent song and I gave it my top vote of 9. I also thought it was one the best songs that I've ever heard of yours, well done.

Zeek I gave your song an 8 along with SIB's and Don's song, two very good songs and two very good efforts imo.

Mark I gave your song a 7, I would have given it a higher score, but I know what you're capable of and I'm holding you to a higher standard, and while this song is good, I found it to be a bit pedestrian.

I also gave Val's and Donna's song a 7, I think there's a genesis of a good song started, and with the right producer it could be made into a great song for you to preform or to shop around as an demo.

I gave three 6's to out to Silence - starsinmyeyes, Red Haired Girl - Thinman, Yin and the Yang the Black and the White - SoddyBottoms, while all good songs, I found, and this is just my own preferance in songs, that they didn't do too much to excite me.

Zeek, on 17 June 2010 - 07:41 PM, said:

Quote

I wouldn't worry about that , it's pretty obvious some of the voting is to gain advantage for favorites. Example Zeek got a 4 on his , That was a pretty polished pc of work and was no way a 4 in comparison to the lot ...

Thanks (again) Sod---yeah that 4 threw me a bit but whatever. I though 4th place would have been okay for me because of the competition so 2nd was sweet. I NEVER give anyone less than a 5. I figure if they make a decent effort, and everyone does as long as I've been here, then that 5 is deserved of their work in getting their best stuff out there...and that's whether or not they are a beginner or more polished.

Keep pumping them out Mark--good stuff will always rise to the top.

Zeek

Yes I gave out a "4" to Younger Days - kimberlyinnc and musefrommichigan. To me this is a song contest and not a sport day event for kids where everyone receives a ribbon just for showing up and participating.

I'm sure Kim and MFM don't take this score personally, I know what Kim and MFM are capable of doing and I found this song to be a bit below average for their efforts, and in my best Simon Cowell, I found this song to be rather weak and a bit draining.

I don't play favorites, I call 'em as I see 'em, regardless of who's song it is, sugar coating song scores in a contest does no one any favours imo.

Bruce

[FunkDaddy]

Bruce N, on 19 June 2010 - 12:50 PM, said:

Mark I gave your song a 7, I would have given it a higher score, but I know what you're capable of and I'm holding you to a higher standard, and while this song is good, I found it to be a bit pedestrian.

Thanks Bruce. I know you want to hear me embody Gord Downie every time out now That's actually a very flattering reason for an average score for me, to be expecting more than what I present, I appreciate that quite a bit.

[musefrommichigan]

Hello Bruce,

Wow Bruce I can really hear your struggle about how to score honestly for the song contest.
I tend to see the best in people's work and therefore may score too high. I dislike scoring.
And I dislike knowing that how I score others will be the basis for the score I am given. I
think that pushes the scores upward. Good for you. Thank you for your honest opinion.

1st - Tumble Weed - Neal K

2nd - First Time Love - Zeek
Congratulations to Neal and Zeek for winning this contest. I loved both those songs!
Great job both of you.
Annie

[kimberlyinnc]

I was going to post on the contest results the other day and got side tracked in other things.

Congrats to Neal...and Zeek....Great work from both of you!! Zeek, a lot of your work is commercial to my ears and I think we could hear one of your lyric/songs on the radio one day if you keep it up and pitch them.. as the music is always catchy with good hooks. I know Neal is already performing and winning fans/ honors with his music with his lovely and talented wife.

My top choices were a tie between were Neal's Tumbleweed, which had a great groove to it and cool/fun lyrics and Don't trust that Summertime Smile, which I had also liked in the Coll. Contest last month. I also tied for 2nd place What Colour is Love and The Darkness Fades...One of my favs. from Funk Daddy's songs- I will save the rest of my thoughts about it for the song forum page.

I found merit in each and every entry- Good job guys!!!

ok..now...perhaps I shouldn't say this, but, I am going to, after debating doing it for several days..

I hope we can all remember there are feelings, and hearts behind the avatars. Words can be very damaging to a person. We need to really consider how we are wording our critiques or scores, and comments afterwards, doing it with good intentions for growth and not be condescending.

My hope for myself and all the musers:) is for this to continue to be a fine site to learn from. A place that's safe to expose our art, our music, our words, our feelings, but staying within decency to other musers. So we can feel we are among friends~or at least among people who'll treat us as such with respect and caring.

I prefer that people take time to share with me privately or on the song/lyric crit. forums, what you find to be in need of change. Don't just leave it at this was not up to par. sub standard , etc... on the contest thread, point out what you mean.

I think most writers appreciate that, and it is what we are here for. :)Though some may not give a flying flip what anyone has to say about their work.

If anyone specifically cares to know my ideas on your song/lyric after a contest, and I have somehow missed critiquing it, give me a holla and I will share my thoughts with you privately or on the forum for crit. whichever you prefer. If you want my opinion. Not that it is necessarily correct...

Ok. I am sorry if I sounded like I was "preaching" today..... I do not mean it as such. I love and appreciate each and every one of you.. HUGS.....and I love this site, and want to see it grow. Maybe my not being a moderator, I have no right to post this, if I am out of bounds, tell me privately...
Peace~~
Kimberly

[musefrommichigan]

Hello neighbor, mind if I say a word about your very thoughtful message.

I can only agree with all you have said. It is simply common good sense to behave kindly as we try to be helpful to our friends who all give their very best efforts to the songs they enter into a contest. Your options of doing it privately add a further dimension to those who wish to be less public with the lessons offered by the criticism from their peers.

THE MUSES MUSE has a fine reputation and that is what brought me to it. Your thoughts are in line with how I believed most members felt.

I wish there were more interest from other members to participate in the contests.

I do believe the ideas you have expressed are good for everyone.

Thank you so much Kimberly.

Annie

[TamsNumber4]

Quote

I hope we can all remember there are feelings, and hearts behind the avatars. Words can be very damaging to a person

I hope that no one comes back in a negative way at Kim for what she said, because it needs to stated, especially for the Muse board in general.

I think that everyone should be treated with respect. Yes, you should comment in a mentoring role, but also encourage and that goes for pms as well.

I can't even join anymore contests on this board. I have been told to stop singing, stop creating melodies and also was told that if I can't be "bothered" to learn an instrument, to just quit..........

Would anyone talk to someone to their face in this way?? Remember, there are human beings on the other side please, just because you can't see their face, or hear their intake of breath as you rip them apart publically or see tears in their eyes, doesn't excuse anyone of demeaning and negative comments. We can all be teachers and help each other rise to a new level, if we care to do so.

Gets off of soapbox.......

Tammy

[musefrommichigan]

Thank you Tammy,

I am so sorry to hear that you have been treated that way by anyone here. I hope they
read this and consider the harm they caused. Perhaps they will grow up and offer an apology. It is never too late to make one. And never listen to anyone's advice if it is given in an unkind manner. Try not to let yourself become a victim. Continue doing all the things you love. It is your life after all, not theirs. Write a melody Today...be you.
Love, Peace
Annie

[daddio]

I feel the need to add a somewhat dissenting opinion.
I don't believe it's kind to be less than honest in a critique. That doesn't excuse personal attacks or demeaning personal comments about someone's talent level. But I haven't seen that anywhere on this thread.
But warm fuzzies that tiptoe around the fact that a song sucks don't help the writer improve. To the contrary, they validate the writer's belief that they've written something of value when that's just not true. If you can't face the hard truth, then your chances for growth and improvement are very limited.
If your goal is some kind of commercial success, then toughen up Buttercup. It's a dog eat dog business and nobody in that arena cares about hurting your feelings. It's much easier to take the negative comment from a well meaning, mentoring friend here on the muse than you would get with that same material in a producer's office.
We all write songs that we play for our friends and family. We all bathe in the warm glow of their encouragement and positive feedback. That's great but doesn't, in any way, make you a better writer. That's why you came here.

[TamsNumber4]

Don,

I never said in that post that I didn't want mentoring and taught on this board. You RARELY comment on my songs, to tell you the truth, only about 7 musers regularly do.

Are you telling me Don that you want me to quit the board all together as well and support those who have asked me to do you think that is acceptable commenting supported by the Muse, OR are you saying that People should tear me apart to the point that I crawl away on my own? Is that what this board is all about? Or can I have constructive critisism without wanting to commit suicide, there is a line it is called being human.

There are people here dreaming of fame, and there are people here to be creative, Out of respect to both extremes, I am saying that there is a middle ground where comments can tell the truth but also be constructive to pushing the person in a positive direction. There are many wordsmiths here, I'm sure they can manage good word choices.

I don't want to be called "BUTTERCUP" and if anyone does, I will slam them into tomorrow, they can take a comment like that and put it where the sun don't shine, it is out of line and not in the spirit with which our comments were being made. We aren't asking for any special treatment, we are asking to be talked to as you would like your own daughter to be spoken to on this forum......with respect, intelligence and guidance, if people start fearing the Muse because of personal attacks, cruelty or disrespectful behavior then what is to become of it?

Tammy

On a sidenote, ....think of how much Kim and Ann's song could have been helped by comments which they have posted for in the Songs forum since May 23rd. If you aren't activly commenting and helping people, then are you just waiting to post comments without constructive ideas in the contest forum, or not interested in really helping anyone at all........just throwing that out there as food for thought.

[TamsNumber4]

Annie,

I promise I will sing it all out today and thank you for being a joyful inspiration!!

Tammy

[SoddyBottoms]

The best attitude to obtain is , I'll show you.. For me I don't put out until I kind pissed and get the I'll show you attitude ,

I don't know about the personal attacks , Like in the contest i always get a 2 or 3 from some one and songs that are not as good as mine get higher rankings..

I really don't care , I JUST CONSIDER IT PETTY behavior.. I gave a dude a 2 a couple months back and he was screaming like a banshee...

He had ripped Tim Mcgraws music and put his words to it and claimed it as his own.. In my book he was a thief and a liar.. I should have gave him less..

My position is let it roll off your back and don't be so thin skinned , you will always be criticized ...

Consider the source.. There are alot of petty people in the world whose opinions don't mean sh## until you give them credibility..

[TamsNumber4]

Quote

you will always be criticized

THERE LIES THE RUB!!

I didn't know that when I signed on, I signed onto a place where I was going to be criticized........I just wanted my songs criticized.

And for those of you (which is most) who didn't realize that I had to post a disclaimer with one of my songs begging people to not criticize me, my hair, my person, but to focus on the song.....should I have to do that......really?

I am not aiming this at you Soddy, you seem a very decent fellow and I love commenting on your songs, but to you and everyone else, stick to the song, help it, nuture it, aim it and the songwriter in a new direction, don't destroy the songwriter because if you tear them down, who is going to doctor the song? I mean, assuming you care for one or the other.

Tammy

[Billy]

Hi everyone,

Just thought I'd share a few thoughts. Personally, I don't see any personal attacks here and I must say, I'm pretty sensitive to such things. In fact, I think I tend to overract to many of the things that are said to me about my work, often times misinterpreting what others had intended. In my opinion, this is happening here as well.

In this case, from an objective standpoint, I saw Bruce sharing his views on individual songs and referencing previous efforts and talent as a way to make a point. THe point being, in his opinion, based on previous efforts, he thought a particular song was not as good as it could have been. That's what constructive criticism is and quite honsetly, what's wrong with that? I've taken part in several of these competitions and voted in a few that I didn't participate in (not as many as I should)and I've seen people agressively advoccating for mini-critiques and feedback regarding their songs. In some cases, almost too much. I'm not sure why people have such an incessant need to hear what others think about their work and yet when it doesn't jibe with their own thoughts, they get mad and/or dismissive. It doens't make any sense to me. In fact, I've steered clear of a few artists who I feel tend to dismiss everything I have to say. You don't need to dismiss things if you don't agree with them. It's simply not necessary. And sometimes I wonder why people want feedback in the first place. For some, if it's completely done and you don't want to hear what others have to say about improvements, why bother posting it at all? And for those that want to defend every word and idea till their blue in the face, what value is there in the process? It's baffling to me.

As many of you know, I'm an art teacher and I facilitate critiques all of the time and believe me, I've been much more straight forward and harsh than anything I've seen here. If the intent of the artist is to get better (and I would hope that is the case for all of us) and the expectation of the facilitator and/or evaluator is to aid someone in this process, than it's important to be honest and straightforward. There is a certain degree of vulerability when you participate in a critique or informational forum. When you ask for feedback, you can't dictate exactly how you want it to be conveyed. That's just not realistic. If you are too thin skinned (and believe me, I struggle with that from time to time) than you may need to evaluate your own reasons for participating in such things. I once had a person tell me that she wasn't going to accept my apology for something that I had said to her (ill-advised but not reprehesible). In her mind, I think it was a way to assert her control over the situation but from my perspective, I found it child-like and laughable. You simple can't control what everyone else does and in this case, at least in my opinion, it was ridiculous and off base. Needless to say, that was the end of our relationship (her choice), which was too bad because the offense, once agian, in my opinion, didn't warrant the response and certainly didn't warrant the ending of a long standing friendship.

In my opinion, this debate is becoming personal and that's always dangerous. Too many feeling and emotions get involved and that's rarely a good thing when discussing such topics. Believe me, I'd be the first one to say if I thought someone was over the top or out of line but I simply don't see that here. Not even close! Although it's not easy, people (including me) need to separate personal feelings from the facts. If I write a ****ty song, I want people to tell me. I might not like hearing it but it will ultimately make me better at what I do.

It's always a shame that these contests end with such negativity. It really detracts from the quality of the entries and the main purpose for conducting these contests in the first place. Sooner or later, people will get so fed up with this aspect of the contest that they will decide to no longer conduct them which would be a shame for all.

I've seen rude, insulting comments made her on ocassion and in my opinion, it's always dealt with and handled quickly and efficiently. I just don't see anything resembling any of that here. Like I said, not even close. To say "this isn't one of your best efforts" or "I think you're capable of better, based on what I've seen from you in the past," is standard fare for me. I say those types of things all the time. It's a way to hold people accountable and to a higher standard. If you sugar coat everything, very little growth and development will occur. It's in no ones best interest to tell someone something that isn't fair, honest, accurate and ojective. Especially if it relates to one's own personal growth and improvement as an artist.

I don't always have the thickest skin when those comments are directed at me but I'm working on it. It's not someone elses responsibility to couch all of their comments in a way that won't hurt my feelings. Especially if my feelings are hurt everytime I hear something negative or contrary to what I believe. We also need to be responsible for ourselves and our own actions. If I were too sensitive, emotionally ill-equipped, or vulerable to every little comment that someone else made, I may choose to take a step back and re-evaluate my situation. Thankfully, my sensitivity isn't at that level. But for some it may be and when it comes down to it, this is just a music forum, consisting in large part of amateur writers and musicians so it really comes down to perspective! Once we lose perspective, all objectivity is lost as well. Just my thoughts on the matter.

Billy

[Neal K]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I need people to tell me if one of my songs suck. See, I love them all - every song I've written and recorded holds a special place in my heart. But that doesn't mean they're all good. I can recognize that some of my songs are better than others, but I can't recognize that any of them are awful. For that I need an outside opinion. My wife is pretty good at rolling her eyes when I play her a stinker...

Our band now plays an entire set of my original material and these songs go over very well. But they've been through a series of filters: first my wife since she ends up singing them, then the rest of the band, then ultimately the audience. If my wife and bandmates are not brutally honest with me then the stinkers could end up being performed "un-filtered" in front of an audience. And when you're making money performing, that is not the place to present stinkers.

Daddio is right: if your goal is to have some kind of commercial success with your music, you have to have thick skin. When you perform live everything is up for criticism: your music, how you dress, your hairstyle, the condition of your equipment (speakers, amps, etc), how you behave off stage.... and so on.

While there is no place for disrespect and personal attacks on these boards, participation on sites like this can sometimes give you a taste of what it's really like out there in the music business.

Neal

[Alistair S]

I'm utterly confused.

Looking through this thread, I can't see the comments that sparked this debate. Can someone enlighten me? Or are we talking about scores? If it's about scores, let's remember that tastes vary wildly and the songs that may be our personal favourites are just as likely to be somebody else's duds. I believe that most people vote fairly and that the contest results are pretty good feedback. As I have said before, I'd rather have a song that has a few people like it a lot while others hate it than have a song which everyone thinks is "kinda OK".

We have had some people voting dishonestly, but the current system (in which your votes are averaged and handed back to you) has helped nullify that to a large extent. At least, I see very few contestants voting the best songs low and the worst songs high these days - and the results, while not always in the order I would place songs, are rarely hugely surprising.

Of course, it may be that the debate is inspired by something elsewhere. Again, could someone enlighten me, please?

What I see mostly is the reverse.

I see a lot of back-slapping and precious little in the way of honest, non-sugar-coated, in-depth critiques these days. I used to post a lot in Lyric Critiques, but rarely do now. If someone new is posting lyrics and appears to be genuine in their desire for feedbacm, I will sometimes post something. However, I am often then following a stream of "I loved this!" type comments and am not surprised that my critique is often dismissed. I am close to giving up on that forum altogether because, except for a very few writers, it feels as though a genuine critique is considered in some way "rude". I know that I am far from alone in this and I think the lyrics, and the writers (and the contests), are suffering as a result of this lack of honest critique. I do see fewer lyrics being picked up by musicians and I have heard musicians bemoaning the lack of anything worthwhile being created.

I do believe that the current "just be nice" culture is at least partially to blame.

Of course, I separate an honest critique from a personal attack. Explaining (in detail) why a lyric doesn't work is not attacking the writer. It actually takes considerable time to do properly and is surely what the writer is posting their lyric for?

However, if anyone is genuinely attacking people for their hair style or who they are, that is a personal attack and it should not have to be tolerated. If it happened on a forum I moderate, I hope that I would step in (unless it was a joke). Of course, moderators don't always see every thread. If you feel that you have been personally attacked, I would encoureage you to report it to a mod on the forum concerned, who should then deal with the situation.

I think what we all want is a forum in which people are free to post and receive honest and helpful feedback (note: this may not always be flattering, so a thick skin is required!). Perhaps the key criteria is whether the feedback is helpful or not. It's a hard thing to judge when posting it and perhaps we can only ask ourselves whether our intent was to be helpful. If so, we probably aren't going too far wrong.

[daddio]

TamsNumber4, I've gone back and re-read my post again and see nothing that was a personal attack on you or anyone else. Please point out to me what you found so offensive.
Like Alistair, I've stopped posting on the lyric board for exactly the same reason he stopped posting. It's devolved into being a place where you can get "atta boys" very easily but very little real critiquing is going on, IMHO.
My personal philosophy about posting is that I generally only post a critique if I have something specific to say. Sometimes that might just be encouragement, other times it might be suggesting specific changes. I generally post to people's songs that I feel are open to my crits. Some songs are so poorly written that there's no point in making suggestions. But I know that if I post that, the writer is most likely to take it as a personal attack so I leave it alone. If someone shows extreme sensitivity to criticism and seems to take everything personally, I usually avoid posting to their work also.
Before you get all worked up again, Tams, none of these comments are directed at you, they are general comments about the board.
I've been performing for about thirty years and have to agree with Neal, being on stage is an invitation to have darts thrown at you. Shopping songs to artists and producers is the same. If you're not thick skinned you won't last long.
This muse board, at its harshest, is a lite version of all that. I consider many of these people to be friends. If they tell me that my song sucks, and they have, I don't take it personally. I know they are giving honest feedback about the song, not me. That's what friends do.

[Billy]

Alistair S, on 24 June 2010 - 12:45 PM, said:

I see a lot of back-slapping and precious little in the way of honest, non-sugar-coated, in-depth critiques these days. I used to post a lot in Lyric Critiques, but rarely do now. If someone new is posting lyrics and appears to be genuine in their desire for feedbacm, I will sometimes post something. However, I am often then following a stream of "I loved this!" type comments and am not surprised that my critique is often dismissed. I am close to giving up on that forum altogether because, except for a very few writers, it feels as though a genuine critique is considered in some way "rude". I know that I am far from alone in this and I think the lyrics, and the writers (and the contests), are suffering as a result of this lack of honest critique. I do see fewer lyrics being picked up by musicians and I have heard musicians bemoaning the lack of anything worthwhile being created.

I do believe that the current "just be nice" culture is at least partially to blame.

I couldn't agree more. In fact, I don't comment as much either on the lyric or music forum and that's for several reasons, including dismissiveness, sensitivity, and to be quite honest, a lack of good quality lyrics and/or songs. Of course that's purely subjective and soley my opinion, but I do think a lot of the stuff being posted is sub-par. The more we encourage and praise these types of posts, without greater scrutiny and harsher feedback, the more we'll see of them and that's not in anyone's best interest. I've posted many a stinker over the past few years and when I've been called out on it it made me dig deeper. As a result, I think I've made some improvement. I still have a long way to go but I am getting better and that is due in large part to people calling me out on things that quite honestly, weren't that good. I don't always agree but it certainly makes me look more closely at what I've done. To me, that's the value in a honest, straightforward critique. For me, I want professional grade lyrics and I know I'm a long way off from that. Others may be striving for less but regardless, dumbing down the feedback that we provide is still not productive and in anyone's best interest. Believe me, I hesitate to say any of this, because I realize that such comments are explosive and controversial, but from my perspective, it's true. Others may not agree, and that's there perogative, but it is my opinion and I suspect the opinion of others as well.

I've seen a drop off in posts altogether and many of the more seasoned lyricists and musicians are choosing to not participate as much, which is a real shame. I want to hear what the veterans have to say for they bring the most experience and/or credentials to the table. Why would I want to push them away? Believe me, flooding the forum with junk, isn't the answer. However, I must say, I've been able to post a few clunkers over the years and based on good, solid feedback, transform them into a decent lyric but this isn't without persistence, hardwork and diligence, often requrinig me to scrap large portions of what I've written in order to get better. And I got a lot of criticism at the time for posting a lyric that wasn't finished but it worked for me. I don't see a lot of writers approaching their rewrites in a rigorous way and why would they if everyone is telling each other how great they are? It's something we need to work on collectively or we'll all lose out. It wasn't that long ago that I was a newbie here and I took my lumps for some of the lyrics I posted and although I was stubborn at the time, thinking they were better than they were, I was smart enough to listen and absorb the information I was receiving. Z Mulls, Psyve, Ron,Jonie, Don, Alistair, Joan, Ian, and many more, pulled no punches and I'm forever grateful. I respect them for their honesty and more so for their contributions towards my improvement as a writer. This isn't a social club for me but rather a place to hone my craft and get better at what I do. Fortunately, along the way, I've made many friends doing that which is icing on the cake. I'm not saying any of this to turn anyone away. In fact, my intent is quite the opposite. The more we work together, putting personal differences and egos aside, the better the process will be.

Just an aside. I like hearing what others have to say about my competition entries but I'm not so sure it's necessary. In fact, it usually leads to this type of nonsense which could easily be avoided. We might be better served to share these views privately. Fewer feeling would be hurt! I've entered quite a few contests over the past few years outside of the muse and I've never gotten any comments on any of them and I'm no worse for wear! People say they want to hear what others have to say but do they really? Outside of the praises, what do any of us really want to hear? I know what I want from the process but it's most likely different for others and with so many different expectations, it's hard to please everyone. I vote for no public comments and/or critiques on song/lyric contests unless you're saying nice things about me ! Sorry, I could'nt help myself!

Billy

[Alistair S]

Yeah, but you really do suck!



(kidding!)

[Billy]

Alistair S, on 24 June 2010 - 01:50 PM, said:

Yeah, but you really do suck!

I don't get that Brit sense of humor! Like I said, I'm still struggling with my sensitivity!

[TamsNumber4]

THIS IS FREAKING GREAT!!!

I can NEVER get any of you guys to look at any of my songs.......but throw in a little dissent and it is off to the races!!

Quote

It's devolved into being a place where you can get "atta boys" very easily but very little real critiquing is going on

In my opinion here Don, you and many others are adding to the problem and making it worse. If you aren't out there showing real comments and sharing your knowledge, then things like this will happen again and again. If you were mentoring, then the yahoos that pm me with crap might have been stopped by learning how it is done beforehand.

Kim and Ann posted for comments on the Song board, I wonder if you guys would have helped that song along, if it would have avoided the comments it is getting in a contest.

Alistair and Billy are, in my mind, mentors. They both mentored me when I started and their comments are always to the point but constructive. There are people on this board that WANT them to hear their song and read their lyrics. If you go to my "Be Enough" song post, you will see how happy I was to have Billy visit and I posted.....on record......that if Alistair even visited it, I would faint out of happiness, because I respect both of you.

But.........If you aren't out there setting an example and helping to show how to do any of this without cruel commenting and allowing people to get to the contests to say that you don't like a piece and be free of constructive comments of the song and lyrics boards.......then you are creating a problem, but I am sure no one will see it that way, but I know LOTS of people on the Muse that would LOVE to have those folks that Billy listed visit every once in awhile.
Everyone here DOES want to learn and get better.

Tammy

[Alistair S]

I'll certainly give it another go.

As it happens, I'd already decided to try and do at least one critique a day for a while. I won't bore you with what's going on in my life at the moment (oh, OK.. maybe a little .. divorce negotiations, house sales, finding somewhere to live, 3 consulting assignments - with two sets of deadlines in the next week - a son still getting over his heroin addiction and a daighter, recently returned from Australia who needs support in getting back into gear in the UK .. for starters ) .. but, if I had mentioned all that, you'd appreciate that I'm not finding it easy to find the time right now.

I will, however, give it a try. I do read a good few lyrics (and listen to some songs). I don't always have much to say, though. There are also times, I must admit, where I have too much to say and no time or energy to say it.

I'm not whineing (I'm actually vety happy), I'm just saying that many people have little time to spend here and tend to spend that time where they get the best "bang for the buck" or can be most useful. There's an awful lot to look at and read and hear, after all!


P.S. For what it's worth, I don't think you have to play an instrument. It depends what you want to do. I know a few people who go out and sing their songs a capella and are very well received! If, however, you want some backing music, it may be difficult to get people to stick with the melody you have created (depending on the individual).