[Justice Marie]

I originally had posted this in Newbie forum, but I think it's more appropriate here.


I feel like I am always suffering from "1st Verse Syndrome!" Can anyone feel me on this? I come up with a great idea, I write a kick ass 1st lyric, I come up with a decent chorus....and then I'm stuck, and my 2nd verses are never as catchy/meaningful/well-crafted/whatever.

Is this something that will go away as I write more music, or does everyone pretty much experience this? Sometimes, after several months, I will go back and find a perfect 2nd verse, but more often than not, I add it to the ever growing graveyard of half written lyrics. How do you guys battle this?

On the other hand, sometimes you write several half-songs and you turn them into the B-Side of "Abbey Road."

[Yamaki]

Hi Justice,

It's a common problem for writers, I've been there many times. You're not alone!

A few weeks ago, I was fortunate to meet a fellow by the name of Ralph Murphy. He talked about this "second verse hell" that people find themselves in, and suggested what you do is to make the first verse (that you were able to come up with) your second verse. Then try writing a new first verse which tells how you got to the second verse. This does work!

Murphy is about the most knowledgeable person I have ever met as far as writing hit songs goes; he knows what works and what doesn't. He's been in the business a long time and knows every genre, every hit, from every country, inside out! Check him out on the web (search 'Murphy's Laws of Songwriting'), as he has some really good advice.

Y
performer, producer, songwriter, publisher, and most recently, Vice President, International and Domestic Membership, ASCAP.

performer, producer, songwriter, publisher, and most recently, Vice President, International and Domestic Membership, ASCAP.

[neuroron]

I originally had posted this in Newbie forum, but I think it's more appropriate here.


I feel like I am always suffering from "1st Verse Syndrome!" Can anyone feel me on this? I come up with a great idea, I write a kick ass 1st lyric, I come up with a decent chorus....and then I'm stuck, and my 2nd verses are never as catchy/meaningful/well-crafted/whatever.

Is this something that will go away as I write more music, or does everyone pretty much experience this? Sometimes, after several months, I will go back and find a perfect 2nd verse, but more often than not, I add it to the ever growing graveyard of half written lyrics. How do you guys battle this?

On the other hand, sometimes you write several half-songs and you turn them into the B-Side of "Abbey Road."

One thing to think about when you've painted yourself into that corner is: That first verse you wrote is really a SECOND verse and you need to write the set up instead.

[zmulls]

Ralph Murphy is a nice guy, and I've had the opportunity to meet him as well. He's very generous with his time and advice.

And Ron is right -- move the verses around, see how the second line does as a first line, etc. Don't lock yourself in to that first idea.

[Billy]

I've experienced this many times myself and plan to apply the suggestions made by Yamaki and Ron! This is something that plaques me quite frequently!

Billy

[bernabby]

I originally had posted this in Newbie forum, but I think it's more appropriate here.


I feel like I am always suffering from "1st Verse Syndrome!" Can anyone feel me on this? I come up with a great idea, I write a kick ass 1st lyric, I come up with a decent chorus....and then I'm stuck, and my 2nd verses are never as catchy/meaningful/well-crafted/whatever.

Is this something that will go away as I write more music, or does everyone pretty much experience this? Sometimes, after several months, I will go back and find a perfect 2nd verse, but more often than not, I add it to the ever growing graveyard of half written lyrics. How do you guys battle this?

On the other hand, sometimes you write several half-songs and you turn them into the B-Side of "Abbey Road."

Welcome to the 2nd v blues crowd. I think you always need that "kick ass" first v to grab your audience. If you get a "kick ass" ch to follow it might help to lessen the impact of a weaker 2nd v cause that audience is going to look forward to get to that ch again. Just some thoughts.

[Salley Gardens]

I have the same difficulty when writing music (without lyrics); and also when writing articles, reports, stories, & letters. Yeah, moving the order of the bits is helpful. it helps to not tie yourself to working in a linear fashion.

[OskaSeason]

Hi Justice. I never thought of making the original kick ar-- first verse the second etc. I will certainly try it.

Myself, I always try to write each verse as if its a stand alone verse and also as good as any other, then I spend time linking them together.
Its so easy to write a line that rhymes just because it does.

Often I end up re-writing the first verse because the second turns out better.

I hope this make sense.

Roy

[Justice Marie]

Hi Justice. I never thought of making the original kick ar-- first verse the second etc. I will certainly try it.

Myself, I always try to write each verse as if its a stand alone verse and also as good as any other, then I spend time linking them together.
Its so easy to write a line that rhymes just because it does.

Often I end up re-writing the first verse because the second turns out better.

I hope this make sense.

Roy

Much sense, Roy. I agree, it's way too easy to write things that rhyme but aren't much deeper than that. I'm definitely going to try the make the 1st verse the 2nd idea-it helps to think of songwriting as a story, and in that context how to most clearly THELL story.

[OskaSeason]

Hi Justice. I never thought of making the original kick ar-- first verse the second etc. I will certainly try it.

Myself, I always try to write each verse as if its a stand alone verse and also as good as any other, then I spend time linking them together.
Its so easy to write a line that rhymes just because it does.

Often I end up re-writing the first verse because the second turns out better.

I hope this make sense.

Roy

Much sense, Roy. I agree, it's way too easy to write things that rhyme but aren't much deeper than that. I'm definitely going to try the make the 1st verse the 2nd idea-it helps to think of songwriting as a story, and in that context how to most clearly THELL story.

The other thing I do Justice is to open about 6 empty word docs in small windows so that I can see them all on my Screen.
I then write verses and choruses in each window and doodle in others. I cut, copy and paste, moving lines around until something clicks. Then I work on that small window for a while. I never know which is the first second or third verse and I never know what order the lines go in until the end.

Quite often I end up with two songs on the go created from 1 idea and each can be in opposite directions.

Thats me done for now.

Hope this helps.

Roy

[Salley Gardens]

The other thing I do Justice is to open about 6 empty word docs in small windows so that I can see them all on my Screen.
I then write verses and choruses in each window and doodle in others. I cut, copy and paste, moving lines around until something clicks. Then I work on that small window for a while. I never know which is the first second or third verse and I never know what order the lines go in until the end.

I do the exact same thing! except I use a spreadsheet program layed out in such a way that I only need one window.

[zmulls]

I use a pen and paper and scribble a lot and scratch things out.


I'm such a loser.

[OskaSeason]

I use a pen and paper and scribble a lot and scratch things out.


I'm such a loser.

I do that as well if I am away from home or get inspired on the bus except I delete nothing or rub out. Sometimes a word or line that is lost comes back at the end.
.

Roy

[neuroron]

One other thing that I find is always helpful is to, essentially, make an outline. What is it that you want to say in V1, then V2, CH, Bridge etc - initially, disregarding "how" you say it - then write the verse (etc) without much much regard to how good it sounds - then re-write it to optimize its sound - With an outline, in my experience you always finish a first draft, and subsequent drafts are always easier.

[zmulls]

(The wallpaper on my website is made up of a few of my actual rough copies -- scribbles and rhymes listed in the margins and all that)

[Salley Gardens]

I'm such a loser.

Uh-huh, yeah, right. I'd go back to paper and pencil, too, if I thought I could be half the "loser" you are. I can't even really brag about using a computer spreadsheet... since I only use it for text!

[Justice Marie]

(The wallpaper on my website is made up of a few of my actual rough copies -- scribbles and rhymes listed in the margins and all that)

I actually happened to have checked out your website last night, coincidentally, and thought that your background was really cool. Now I know why!

I don't usually write lyrics the first time around on the computer; I usually save that for retooling or polishing. But I really like the idea of the multiple windows or the Excel spreadsheet. Kinda like DIY songwriting software, eh?

[stewart alexande...]

sometimes a good idea to not put much thought into writing.. but to
let go and see what comes.. write pages of stuff if need be.. you'll always find
gems in there to work on and make into a full lovely cake of a lyric :>

[tunesmithth]

I've always prefered Z's method....although he & I are probably pretty close in age too....does that tell us anything, who know?
One advantage that the paper/pen method offers is the ability to work anywhere, anytime and to carry whatever you've developed up to that point....with you. Many times I'll start with a chorus, a title, write a section of a verse along with some general notes on how I see the lyric developing, then put it out in my van and carry it around with me for a few days....continue to work on it & add to it as the mood strikes me and time allows. I've never been a big believer in doing complete works in one sitting either...but everyone is comfortable with different approaches.

Back to the posters question, I think what you've described is exactly why rewrites are so heavily encouraged in songwriting. Like a lot of writers, it was hard for me to warm up to the concept of rewiting at first, but over the years I've really come to consider it an extremely vauable tool. I constantly rewite! Coincidentally, I just now came up from working on the rewrite of a Christmas song I demoed last year. Believe it or not, it's the second verse that I wasn't happy with...like you said....it just wasn't of the same quality as the rest of the lyric. I rewrote the verse last month, rerecorded that section of the vocal track last week, made some other editing & arragement changes tonight and will be doing trial mixes over the next couple of weeks. The thing is....I've gotten to where I no longer consider this problematic, just another part of the process.
I"m not a pro though & I'm sure there are plenty of different points of view, but for what it's worth, that's mine.

[oxe57]

You're not the only one who suffers with this ailment. To this day I struggle with 2nd verses. One of the things I've found is that you might have said everything in the 1st verse. Take another look and see if you can't dismantle the 1st verse into smaller pieces. If you simply ellaborate more on each piece this may trigger the rest of the lyric.

Always remember a lyric is like bumping into an old acquaintance. You greet each other, share the past, the present and the future and then say goodbye. I know this sounds simple but if you keep this in mind it might help with the 2nd verse blues. Keep writing...................................................peace!

[Alistair S]

I'm sure we all have this problem, to some extent.

I write something that I like and then I can't write something else as good to match it. Often, it's because I don't yet know what the song is about - I only have a rough idea.

Then again, I'm not sure that what I have is a first verse. I just have a piece. I often use post-it notes, especially if I am not near a computer. I can carry these anywhere and rearrange them easily. Sometimes I end up throwing away that first piece - it was just something that eventually triggered something else.

Sometimes it will end up as a bridge, or as a chorus. I don't see it as a verse - more the germ of an idea.

Sometimes just singing it over a few times will naturally lead to a next line and will set me off.

Often, it languishes. I have a Word document called "Ideas" that is full of snippets and pieces. Sometimes, when I open it, I see pieces that might fit together or be reused. When I do finally get something that is starting to develop, I save it in a new document and the rewrites and polishing work begins.

[stewart alexande...]

I drink wine.

[tunesmithth]

I'm sorry.....I assumed that drinking was part of the process....I prefer Seagrams or Baileys though, not a wine guy I guess

[Nevergoback]

Those kickin' first verses, for me, are often about cool wordplay or just a sound. When you get to a second verse, you actually have to think about what you're trying to say in the song. The problem is, it's hard to get great words when it's so intentional. So I write verses that just say what I want in bland language, so I have a starting point.

Then with revisions I can sharpen things up, but at least I have something to work with.

[Theresa]

I find I have the same problem. Since I've been on the muse it's easier to move verses around. Kind of like not falling in love with the first house or apartment you see. Check them all out and compare. I also write lots of notes and lines to use later.

I also find if I read something new it gets my mind working. More grist for the mill. I feel my best lyrics come early in the morning when I'm not fully awake , if that makes any sense. I grab something and write them down.

Have you ever found that you can pull a verse out of one lyric and it fits better in another ? I do that as well.

Your on the right track by asking questions.

Theresa

[DonnaMarilyn]

What a lot of good ideas! I'm a pen-and-paper gal for the first draft(s), but I like the idea of opening a few Word docs when I transfer to the computer. I'll try that next time.

Theresa, I've often pulled lines or whole verses from one lyric and used them successfully in another.
Very little that I write ever gets wasted.

Donna

[zmulls]

Admittedly, my first draft(s) is(are) in pen and paper. Scribbles until I think I have something acceptable. Then I *have* to type it up.

I have to rewrite off of a printed version. When I see it typed up (the next day, presumably sober) it looks like someone else has written it and I'm editing. And I'm a better editor than writer.

[Lazz]

I'm a better editor than writer.

I wish you lived much closer then.

I'm another pencil guy.

[christina]

Likewise, pen and paper for me too, then into a word document, for songs. I briefly had a look at the MasterWriter songwriting program, but soon deleted the demo copy - just feeling that I have my way of writing now. In composition, however, I have moved to be able to write directly into Finale, though I do not do this every time.

Christina

[DonnaMarilyn]

Christina, interesting what you said about MasterWriter. I also had a trial copy, and I could see its usefulness.
However, in the end I opted not to purchase, as I enjoy the physical pleasure of curling up on the sofa and leafing through my
Oxford American Writer's Thesaurus or my excellent rhyming dictionary (Clement Wood's version).
For me, certain writing tools should remain organic.

Donna

[Lazz]

briefly had a look at the MasterWriter songwriting program, but ......

interesting what you said about MasterWriter. I also.....

I have a great deal to say about MasterWriter.
Saying appears to be frowned upon, however.

[christina]

briefly had a look at the MasterWriter songwriting program, but ......

interesting what you said about MasterWriter. I also.....

I have a great deal to say about MasterWriter.
Saying appears to be frowned upon, however.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts about MasterWriter, Donna. Yes, I too could see its usefulness, and I guess I thought that it would or could be a great thing for someone getting started now, perhaps. Like you, I like to find things in my own ways, the ways I have worked with over time, though this does not mean I cannot take something new on board. I also value the ways of working I still use which are not computer-based, since so much else is now.

I was impressed with the apparent capacities of MasterWriter, as I have mentioned elsewhere here, when I saw it used in a songwriting workshop given by Pat Pattison at an APRA (Australasian Performing Right Association) event in Melbourne at the start of this year. He was using it to demonstrate a way of working on a song from a macro musical level, which was quite new to me, and the program was a great tool for this. As I watched, though, I was aware that this approach was very different from the way I write songs. It was a good insight for me, but ultimately I know that I am the kind of writer I am, and that I do not need a program like this to do what I do.

And to the issue of 'saying' ... yes, it does seem that there are some limits to what we can say and how it can be said here, Lazz - but there is also a lot of room to say quite a lot, too. There is also a considerable chance that the responses we may get may not be what we might hope for, and that possibility raises its own questions. To me, there is also an optimum length to a post, and I find some posts here much longer than I have time or inclination to read, and I feel the same about the level of nit-picking that is entered into in some threads, but I respect that people are going to operate as they wish within the space available. I guess as an overall guide I ask myself if saying something is likely to add to the thread, discussion and available information. In what I have said about MasterWriter, for example, I have tried both to share my (limited) experience and also to keep an openness about the subject, because I imagine that this tool could be just the right thing for some people. Do you have something to share on the topic of MasterWriter that might add to the thread in progress here and perhaps to our pool of information on the topic?

Christina

[Lazz]

Do you have something to share on the topic of MasterWriter that might add to the thread in progress here and perhaps to our pool of information on the topic?

I am a frayed knot.