Muse's Muse Songwriting Message Board: Paramount Group? - Muse's Muse Songwriting Message Board

Jump to content

What This Forum Is About:

Good music publishers wear two different "hats." The first is that of "mentor and coach" -- to develop the skills of aspiring songwriters. The second is that of "promoter" -- maximizing the exposure and earningpotential of the song. This forum is the place to find out how to wear both "hats" effectively yourself if you don't have a music publisher.
  • (2 Pages)
  • +
  • 1
  • 2

Paramount Group? Are they legitimate?

#51 User is offline   Lorna Icon

  • Muse In Training
  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 12
  • Joined: 10-July 10

Posted 29 July 2010 - 02:03 AM

Hi All,

No one seems to have mentioned the fact that if any one pays for a melody to be put to their lyrics, A.S.C.A.P and maybe B.M.I. will not allow any member to register the finished product. So what is the point.

Let's face it if they were talented enough to be able to write hit songs or even V.G.Songs they would not be doing what they are doing.

They are a couple of idiot dudes, who get their money by conning people into having demo's made by themselves. The Demo's I've heard are so bad any legitimate, Publisher or A and R exec. would bin the demo just after hearing the intro.

Only naive writers use them, and most just the once.

#52 User is offline   Lzi Icon

  • Angelz Reign Productions
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 1,813
  • Joined: 19-April 05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:A sea of Zen!
  • Interests:Wow...Everything lol...Music of course :)...I love my family. We love to travel.

    "From one thing know Ten-Thousand things">----------Miyamoto Musashi

Posted 29 July 2010 - 09:14 AM

View PostNeal K, on 27 July 2010 - 09:11 PM, said:

View PostLzi, on 27 July 2010 - 05:04 PM, said:

You've accepted what amounts to a loan (at a crazy interest rate at that) when you cash the advance check, and this will be billed against your future royalties. No mechanical royalty monies will be paid until the full amount of your advance has been recouped. So, you pay for absolutely everything that is done for you, pressing the discs, the artwork, the promotion, etc... EVERYTHING gets charged against your account. The costs are not incurred by the record company. They lend you the money.


It's understood that no payment is made while your account remains in the red. The question is, if the recording does not sell enough to recoup the investment, does the artist owe the outstanding balance? I don't think they do, hence my response to the poster who didn't want to put his family at financial risk. Am I wrong?

Neal


Technically if there is a signed contract between the record company and your company the quick answer is yes, you owe them the money. What happens in practice is bankruptcy. I'm no lawyer so, this is merely the opinion of a lay person however, if there is an inked piece of paper it says what it says, nothing changes that. I would suppose that it's merely a matter of making the legal moves to free yourself from the agreement. A friend who is a music attorney once told me, there is no such thing as a contract which cannot be broken. There are always loopholes to manipulate, always a way out. On paper YES you owe the money...In practice it's another story. Some quick manuvers and you're free.
"Digital? is that the thing where they take a good old sine wave and chop it into bits?"
---Rupert Neve

ANGELz REIGN Productions

#53 User is offline   FunkDaddy Icon

  • Ph.D Drumology
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 4,131
  • Joined: 24-November 03
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Canadia

Posted 29 July 2010 - 06:53 PM

View PostLorna, on 29 July 2010 - 03:03 AM, said:

Hi All,

No one seems to have mentioned the fact that if any one pays for a melody to be put to their lyrics, A.S.C.A.P and maybe B.M.I. will not allow any member to register the finished product. So what is the point.


You haven't heard anyone say that because it isn't true. PROs don't have anything to do with nor any knowledge necessarily at all of how the song is recorded. There concern is who wrote the song, when a demo house records something for a lyricist I assume they sign over the rights to the song. If a demo company records a songwriter's song, the songwriter still owns the song.
Mark
SoundCloud
Facebook
YouTube


Always up for a collaboration with lyricists!

#54 User is online   Jodi Krangle Icon

  • There can only be one. ;)
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 771
  • Joined: 07-April 01
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Newmarket, ON Canada

Posted 29 July 2010 - 07:10 PM

If it's just a demo, then yes - it's usually a work for hire. If the demo folk are also writing the music to the song and/or the melody, then it becomes mutual property (they'd probably mention that in the contract) because usually, that kind of split is 50/50 - 50 % for the lyrics, 50 % for the music. I guess it's conceivable that writing music for the original lyrics could be a "work for hire" if that's previously agreed ... but it's unusual for that to be the case. And if the company that wrote the music wants to trip you up in licensing your song (which would need their input since they own 50% of it - ie: the music credit), they certainly can. It becomes a whole legal can of worms.

My best advice is to read the contract VERY CLOSELY. If you're after someone to do a demo for you and that's it (and you like the work you've heard from them), then sure - feel free to hire anyone you want. That's definitely a work for hire - but make sure that those words are in the contract. If you're after a CO-WRITER, don't look to companies like this. That just causes WAY more problems than you want to deal with.

Again, my opinion only. Up to you what you want to do.

Good luck!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Jodi Krangle - Proprietress of The Muse's Muse
Songwriting Resource @ http://www.musesmuse.com
To find out more about the free monthly e-zine:
http://www.musesmuse.com/musenews.html
----------------------------------------------------------------

#55 User is offline   Lorna Icon

  • Muse In Training
  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 12
  • Joined: 10-July 10

Posted 30 July 2010 - 02:54 AM

Mark are you a lawyer? No I dont think so, Every Great book on song writing will tell you dont go down that route, Telephone A.S.C.A.P. or get a copy of their rules and you will see I'm right. Never Ever Pay some one to put a tune to your lyrics.

As Jodi states you are leaving yourself open to a time bomb of problems, as well as doing something completely stupid.

#56 User is offline   FunkDaddy Icon

  • Ph.D Drumology
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 4,131
  • Joined: 24-November 03
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Canadia

Posted 30 July 2010 - 04:09 PM

Lorna, no I am not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. How can a PRO refuse a song if the melody was paid for? They have no way to prove the melody was paid for and most definately are not investigating that aspect of submissions. Show me where in their rules it states this and I'll have a good laugh (I've got the ASCAP .pdf open right now and find no mention of it)

I was under the assumption that when a lyricist has a demo house put a melody to their lyric, the producer signs over the final product to the lyricist. I've never researched this because I couldn't give half a crap, I have no interest in other people writing my songs for me, so I could be completely wrong.
Mark
SoundCloud
Facebook
YouTube


Always up for a collaboration with lyricists!

#57 User is offline   Neal K Icon

  • Smile. It'll do you good.
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Moderators
  • Posts: 4,271
  • Joined: 20-November 01
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kelowna, BC, Canada

Posted 30 July 2010 - 05:22 PM

View PostFunkDaddy, on 30 July 2010 - 02:09 PM, said:

I was under the assumption that when a lyricist has a demo house put a melody to their lyric, the producer signs over the final product to the lyricist.


Not all of them do. This is something that may be implied, but you'd want it all spelled out. One of our members, the late Don Martin, had several tracks done at the Gator Hole. He supplied the lyrics, they wrote the melody and produced the tracks. The Gator Hole signed over all rights to Don.

It makes financial sense for the demo house to do it for a flat fee and sign away the rights. The odds of any of these songs making a nickle are so high that there's virtually no risk in signing away the rights.

The statement that a PRO "will not allow any member to register the finished product" of what is essentially work for hire is nonsense.

Neal
The forest would be silent if only the best birds sang.

#58 User is offline   Lzi Icon

  • Angelz Reign Productions
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 1,813
  • Joined: 19-April 05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:A sea of Zen!
  • Interests:Wow...Everything lol...Music of course :)...I love my family. We love to travel.

    "From one thing know Ten-Thousand things">----------Miyamoto Musashi

Posted 02 August 2010 - 11:05 AM

I would like to see songwriters come out of the dark ages, and learn the rules of the game they are attempting to play. Two Thousand songs will do you absolutely no good unless you know what to do with them. I've heard "I'm going to record these songs and send them off to a publisher to see if I can get a deal" so many times that it leaves my stomach with a deep pit in it every time I hear anything of the sort anymore. How does one begin a game with no prior knowledge of how the game works? Because, you write beautiful music does not mean that you know how the music business works. It's fine to write music for your own enjoyment however, if you have a sudden realization that your music has to be heard don't expect the world to come beating your door down. Don't believe in fairytales, nothing just happens, you'll have to work for it.

Learn how the business of music works before you dive into the deep end of the pool. Any other approach seems backwards to me. Who starts playing a game of chess, and half way through the game asks about the rules?
"Digital? is that the thing where they take a good old sine wave and chop it into bits?"
---Rupert Neve

ANGELz REIGN Productions

#59 User is offline   Ian Ferrin Icon

  • -
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 1,666
  • Joined: 06-June 05
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 August 2010 - 10:55 AM

View Postblindcommissioner, on 16 June 2010 - 02:56 AM, said:

just my experience with paramount.

i too got a contract from the first set of songs i'd sent anyone, the standard letter that someone posted on the thread. I was really tempted to take them up on their offer of a professional demo. I then did some searching on the net and found a lot of bad comments about them. My view and the view of others I contacted who did work with them is that their main business is as a demo service and they use the publishing card to try and get songwriters to pay for a demo. If you're after a professional demo then they be fine, but i doubt they push songs to publishers.

I think this is exactly right.

FWIW John Paragreen has used them a number of times and posted his demo's by them here. They're not bad. They use pro musicians and singers. But they're not great either... John's Scottish. And they didn't take the time to iron out some of John's misunderstandings of American vernacular... making the demo's unpitchable in Nashville. Basically they're pro's... but you probably only get one take and they're done with your project.

If you PM John, he can probably tell you if the tunes they write are retained by them or if they're explicitly works for hire.

Peace,

Ian
Ian's Soundclick Page

"Hammers don't build houses. People build houses.

A hammer is just a tool. But it's a powerful tool" - me

#60 User is offline   Ian Ferrin Icon

  • -
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 1,666
  • Joined: 06-June 05
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 August 2010 - 12:18 PM

An interesting tidbit:

"In 1935 "Happy Birthday to You" was copyrighted as a work for hire by Preston Ware Orem...

in 2008, Time-Warner (the current copyright owner) collected about $5000 per day ($2 million per year) in royalties for the song"

http://en.wikipedia....Birthday_to_You
Ian's Soundclick Page

"Hammers don't build houses. People build houses.

A hammer is just a tool. But it's a powerful tool" - me

#61 User is offline   bubblingsoul Icon

  • Bonifide Early Bird
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Moderators
  • Posts: 1,487
  • Joined: 13-January 04
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:The Heartland - USA
  • Interests:Music (listening and writing), teaching, web design, bible studies, reading great literature . . . chocolate. Yeah. Chocolate.

Posted 27 August 2010 - 06:11 AM

View PostIan Ferrin, on 19 August 2010 - 11:18 AM, said:

An interesting tidbit:

"In 1935 "Happy Birthday to You" was copyrighted as a work for hire by Preston Ware Orem...

in 2008, Time-Warner (the current copyright owner) collected about $5000 per day ($2 million per year) in royalties for the song"

http://en.wikipedia....Birthday_to_You


Oh my! That is a pocketful, isn't it?

Paramount likes to bait songwriter hopefuls with their encouraging, flattorious (new word everyone ;)) letters. I would dearly love to see what they send out if they don't "like" a lyric . . . then again, they probably don't send out those kind of letters, do they?

~B

#62 User is offline   Lzi Icon

  • Angelz Reign Productions
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 1,813
  • Joined: 19-April 05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:A sea of Zen!
  • Interests:Wow...Everything lol...Music of course :)...I love my family. We love to travel.

    "From one thing know Ten-Thousand things">----------Miyamoto Musashi

Posted 01 September 2010 - 01:53 PM

They may be "Pro's" think what you'd like however, if anyone is considering dealing with these guys, be carefull is all I'm saying. If they can't pitch your music to publishers, music directors, what's the point? What do they do? Ask yourself, is my time, money, and effort worth what they can do for me? These guys make compilation discs. "Pro's" I dunno man, that's a big, long strech of the imagination from where I'm sitting. Does this company pitch your material to anyone who can get you closer to what your goals are? A lot of these type of situations send these discs out to radio stations but, do they ever actually get any plays, any bds spins? They may claim to distribute to label A&R departments but, this doesn't mean they'll go anywhere except in a large pile that nobody ever bothers to look in.
IMHO you would be much better off making 100 copies of your CD, and standing on the street somewhere just giving them away for free to those you target by sight, and intuition. You make fans one at a time, and this does exactly that. Now think, 100 people have not only heard your music but, have also met you. This will get you much further than 100 compilation discs ever will. These people will come and see you perform. Just keep doing the same thing, give away discs, and play shows. Soon you will be selling CDs, and making money to do shows, just keep doing it.

If you're aim is publishing, look into TAXI but, don't stop there either. Don't expect either route to be easy.

If you just want to see your name on a CD...A compilation disc might be exactly what you'd like to do. Who knows? There are as many goals as there are artists to have them. Always be careful whenever you consider doing business with anyone. This is not said to be a nasty business without very good reason. There are people who will take your money without blinking. There are a lot of people who do this with a big, bright smile. Just be careful.
"Digital? is that the thing where they take a good old sine wave and chop it into bits?"
---Rupert Neve

ANGELz REIGN Productions

#63 User is offline   Neal K Icon

  • Smile. It'll do you good.
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Moderators
  • Posts: 4,271
  • Joined: 20-November 01
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kelowna, BC, Canada

Posted 02 September 2010 - 05:17 PM

View PostLzi, on 01 September 2010 - 11:53 AM, said:

A lot of these type of situations send these discs out to radio stations but, do they ever actually get any plays, any bds spins?


I can answer this one with first hand experience, and the answer is "no." I worked at a radio station for two summers back when I was in College. These used to come in all the time and the program director threw them straight into the trash. He knew exactly what they were and didn't waste anytime with them. Of course, these days most radio stations are no longer independant - they are owned by big conglomerates. Most local stations don't even program their own music any more, so sending any kind of compliation disc to a radio station is a waste of time.

Neal
The forest would be silent if only the best birds sang.

#64 User is offline   Lzi Icon

  • Angelz Reign Productions
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 1,813
  • Joined: 19-April 05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:A sea of Zen!
  • Interests:Wow...Everything lol...Music of course :)...I love my family. We love to travel.

    "From one thing know Ten-Thousand things">----------Miyamoto Musashi

Posted 09 September 2010 - 11:43 AM

View PostNeal K, on 02 September 2010 - 06:17 PM, said:

View PostLzi, on 01 September 2010 - 11:53 AM, said:

A lot of these type of situations send these discs out to radio stations but, do they ever actually get any plays, any bds spins?


I can answer this one with first hand experience, and the answer is "no." I worked at a radio station for two summers back when I was in College. These used to come in all the time and the program director threw them straight into the trash. He knew exactly what they were and didn't waste anytime with them. Of course, these days most radio stations are no longer independant - they are owned by big conglomerates. Most local stations don't even program their own music any more, so sending any kind of compliation disc to a radio station is a waste of time.

Neal


Exactly Neal, you are sending frisbees to radio stations, it's a waste of time & money. There are independent radio stations but, they are few and far between.

I have a female friend who works for Clear Channel so, I know exactly what's up. 99% of all radio is syndicated...PERIOD. If you'd like to get some raadio spins be prepared to pay for a radio promoter to pitch your HOT new single to the stations but, be prepared to lay out upwards of $10,000 per market for it.

OK so we've debunked the send the comp discs to the program directors myth so now, for the labels...Believe me guys, girls, and everything in-between, the labels will not be listening to these compilation discs, they won't, they just won't so, listen to me, save your money, use it for something constructive. Join Taxi or something because, no label is going to listen to anything such as this. Basically, if they didn't ask you for music, they do not want to hear it, it's a legal issue, it's business, they can't listen to things like this, they simply cannot.

Some may say, these guys are a legit company, and on paper I'm sure they are however it is their tactics which identify them as what they are. You can believe these people if you'd like to but, expect nothing real to come of it.
"Digital? is that the thing where they take a good old sine wave and chop it into bits?"
---Rupert Neve

ANGELz REIGN Productions

#65 User is offline   FunkDaddy Icon

  • Ph.D Drumology
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 4,131
  • Joined: 24-November 03
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Canadia

Posted 09 September 2010 - 05:45 PM

Let me just re-iterate what everybody else has, if you like the idea of your song on a compilation disc purely for the novelty factor, go for it, but please don't get your hopes up that these discs will make it into the hands of anybody who can do anything for you.

These companies are there to make MONEY, plain and simple, they wouldn't gain anything from pitching your music (though...read the fine print CAREFULLY...they might take a share of the publishing for putting the disc together) so why would they bother?

If your goal is publishing and label/artist interest, save your money and keep writing and finding avenues to actually pitch your music.
Mark
SoundCloud
Facebook
YouTube


Always up for a collaboration with lyricists!

#66 User is offline   Sammie-joe Icon

  • Muse In Training
  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 1
  • Joined: 30-August 10

Posted 14 September 2010 - 05:01 PM

boy am i glad i came on here. i sent paramount some of my song too. and they've replied saying they like two of them. and they're offering me a contract.
it came through the door this morning and immeditely my cynical side took over. i was going to visit someone who could introduce me to a songwriter lawyer in the morning but i thought i'd check out what others have to say. and i'm glad i did.
thanks for you info guys.
write on :-)

#67 User is offline   The7thSon Icon

  • Muse In Training
  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 11
  • Joined: 12-March 09

Posted 29 September 2010 - 12:06 AM

View PostSammie-joe, on 14 September 2010 - 06:01 PM, said:

boy am i glad i came on here. i sent paramount some of my song too. and they've replied saying they like two of them. and they're offering me a contract.
it came through the door this morning and immeditely my cynical side took over. i was going to visit someone who could introduce me to a songwriter lawyer in the morning but i thought i'd check out what others have to say. and i'm glad i did.
thanks for you info guys.
write on :-)


I did so as well, but I declined the offer. I only used a company like this once before, because I had the music arranged but my equipment is not exactly professional sounding. I just wanted to get a polished sound of what I had created (words and music), so all rights are still mine. Since then, I've decided to work towards looking for the best musician and voice(s) on my own to work with me, and with further networking, we'll take things to the next level - together.

I just want to know and believe for myself that anyone who has a part in my musical creations, believe in them as I do. You just can't (and won't) get that from those "music mills".

The wisest thing to do is get the legal advice first, which is what I'm doing - so I think you(we) are on the right track. ;)

#68 User is offline   Lzi Icon

  • Angelz Reign Productions
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 1,813
  • Joined: 19-April 05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:A sea of Zen!
  • Interests:Wow...Everything lol...Music of course :)...I love my family. We love to travel.

    "From one thing know Ten-Thousand things">----------Miyamoto Musashi

Posted 07 October 2010 - 10:35 AM

View PostThe7thSon, on 29 September 2010 - 01:06 AM, said:

View PostSammie-joe, on 14 September 2010 - 06:01 PM, said:

boy am i glad i came on here. i sent paramount some of my song too. and they've replied saying they like two of them. and they're offering me a contract.
it came through the door this morning and immeditely my cynical side took over. i was going to visit someone who could introduce me to a songwriter lawyer in the morning but i thought i'd check out what others have to say. and i'm glad i did.
thanks for you info guys.
write on :-)


I did so as well, but I declined the offer. I only used a company like this once before, because I had the music arranged but my equipment is not exactly professional sounding. I just wanted to get a polished sound of what I had created (words and music), so all rights are still mine. Since then, I've decided to work towards looking for the best musician and voice(s) on my own to work with me, and with further networking, we'll take things to the next level - together.

I just want to know and believe for myself that anyone who has a part in my musical creations, believe in them as I do. You just can't (and won't) get that from those "music mills".

The wisest thing to do is get the legal advice first, which is what I'm doing - so I think you(we) are on the right track. ;)


Yes! Get legal advice if you don't trust the good advice that's already been offered here. Better to spend the money on representation who will undoubtedly shoot so many holes into the workings of Paramount Group their contract will resemble Bonnie and Clyde Barrow's car after their famous last stand againt the law! You'll spend money to learn the lesson but, at least you will gain a better understanding of how things work in this game.

Hey, maybe some of you would like to work under the assumption that "Oh Paramount Group are a bunch of really nice guys, and hey, I'm just a hobbyist so"...Do what you do, by all means, dream on 'till your dreams come true but, then, don't come back whinning because, you didn't recieve what you thought you'd recieve... "they didn't do anything for me." I've seen and heard this same story more than ten times in my life so for what it's worth, my advice is to stay away from these guys. But, don't believe me, pay an entertainment attorney to tell you the same thing I'll tell you for free...Stay away, this is a scam. If you choose to work with this company because, they seem like great guys...Yes, there may be a very good reason why you consider yourself a hobbyist-BECAUSE YOU'RE RIGHT! Still, because someone is a hobbyist doesn't make them fodder to rip off.

I'm certain everyone who's ever written a song has dreamt about having a publishing contract where they just sit and write music all day long. Nice dream however, that's all it is. This is a business, treat it as one, use your intelligence. If it sounds yoo good to be true, it is. If it is your goal to have that pie in the sky publishing agreement why not start by learning how this game works before you start setting up the game board, and pieces? Companies such as Paramount are built upon the pie in the sky dreams of dreamers, and their money.

I am not here to put anyone down for writing music as a hobby. If that's what it is to you, beautiful but, then don't expect fairytales to come true just because, someone you've spoken to someone at a company "seems to be a nice guy" because, that logic is useless. Learn a bit about how the publishing side of this busioness works if you're going to attempt to play the game. Be realistic. Just because, you are a hobbyist doesn't mean this gives people the right to rip you off. But hey, if you insist on throwing your money into the wind, it's like my father used to tell me as a child...

"If there is a nut standing on the corner giving away money, get in line twice"

It seems someone at Paramount Group knew my dad because, that's exactly what they are doing..."Oh we like song#2 and song#4" How predictable! Now they've fed the ego, the dream, and now they go in after the money. It's much like those poetry sites you send a poem to, and all of the sudden you start recieving a load of crap in the mail about your poem, and how amazing it is, and how for $250 you can be in some book that'll be sent out to liberaries across the nation! HAHA Anyone wanna buy a nice bridge in Brooklyn? C'mon, wake up, smell the coffee, give that dream time to fade away before you start the day off making huge mistakes. Maybe another cup of coffee? No doubt, this is not what it seems to be so, for what it's worth, it's a scam. Believe otherwise if you'd like to. Send me an email when the money from your hit song starts rolling in. Buy a good book on how the publishing business works and read it four or five times. This would be a much better investment of you money. Hobby or not, you have to know the rules before you play the game.
"Digital? is that the thing where they take a good old sine wave and chop it into bits?"
---Rupert Neve

ANGELz REIGN Productions

#69 User is offline   Big Jim Icon

  • Contributing Muse
  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 44
  • Joined: 22-March 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted 05 November 2010 - 02:15 PM

View PostLzi, on 07 October 2010 - 03:35 PM, said:

View PostThe7thSon, on 29 September 2010 - 01:06 AM, said:

View PostSammie-joe, on 14 September 2010 - 06:01 PM, said:

boy am i glad i came on here. i sent paramount some of my song too. and they've replied saying they like two of them. and they're offering me a contract.
it came through the door this morning and immeditely my cynical side took over. i was going to visit someone who could introduce me to a songwriter lawyer in the morning but i thought i'd check out what others have to say. and i'm glad i did.
thanks for you info guys.
write on :-)


I did so as well, but I declined the offer. I only used a company like this once before, because I had the music arranged but my equipment is not exactly professional sounding. I just wanted to get a polished sound of what I had created (words and music), so all rights are still mine. Since then, I've decided to work towards looking for the best musician and voice(s) on my own to work with me, and with further networking, we'll take things to the next level - together.

I just want to know and believe for myself that anyone who has a part in my musical creations, believe in them as I do. You just can't (and won't) get that from those "music mills".

The wisest thing to do is get the legal advice first, which is what I'm doing - so I think you(we) are on the right track. ;)


Yes! Get legal advice if you don't trust the good advice that's already been offered here. Better to spend the money on representation who will undoubtedly shoot so many holes into the workings of Paramount Group their contract will resemble Bonnie and Clyde Barrow's car after their famous last stand againt the law! You'll spend money to learn the lesson but, at least you will gain a better understanding of how things work in this game.

Hey, maybe some of you would like to work under the assumption that "Oh Paramount Group are a bunch of really nice guys, and hey, I'm just a hobbyist so"...Do what you do, by all means, dream on 'till your dreams come true but, then, don't come back whinning because, you didn't recieve what you thought you'd recieve... "they didn't do anything for me." I've seen and heard this same story more than ten times in my life so for what it's worth, my advice is to stay away from these guys. But, don't believe me, pay an entertainment attorney to tell you the same thing I'll tell you for free...Stay away, this is a scam. If you choose to work with this company because, they seem like great guys...Yes, there may be a very good reason why you consider yourself a hobbyist-BECAUSE YOU'RE RIGHT! Still, because someone is a hobbyist doesn't make them fodder to rip off.

I'm certain everyone who's ever written a song has dreamt about having a publishing contract where they just sit and write music all day long. Nice dream however, that's all it is. This is a business, treat it as one, use your intelligence. If it sounds yoo good to be true, it is. If it is your goal to have that pie in the sky publishing agreement why not start by learning how this game works before you start setting up the game board, and pieces? Companies such as Paramount are built upon the pie in the sky dreams of dreamers, and their money.

I am not here to put anyone down for writing music as a hobby. If that's what it is to you, beautiful but, then don't expect fairytales to come true just because, someone you've spoken to someone at a company "seems to be a nice guy" because, that logic is useless. Learn a bit about how the publishing side of this busioness works if you're going to attempt to play the game. Be realistic. Just because, you are a hobbyist doesn't mean this gives people the right to rip you off. But hey, if you insist on throwing your money into the wind, it's like my father used to tell me as a child...

"If there is a nut standing on the corner giving away money, get in line twice"

It seems someone at Paramount Group knew my dad because, that's exactly what they are doing..."Oh we like song#2 and song#4" How predictable! Now they've fed the ego, the dream, and now they go in after the money. It's much like those poetry sites you send a poem to, and all of the sudden you start recieving a load of crap in the mail about your poem, and how amazing it is, and how for $250 you can be in some book that'll be sent out to liberaries across the nation! HAHA Anyone wanna buy a nice bridge in Brooklyn? C'mon, wake up, smell the coffee, give that dream time to fade away before you start the day off making huge mistakes. Maybe another cup of coffee? No doubt, this is not what it seems to be so, for what it's worth, it's a scam. Believe otherwise if you'd like to. Send me an email when the money from your hit song starts rolling in. Buy a good book on how the publishing business works and read it four or five times. This would be a much better investment of you money. Hobby or not, you have to know the rules before you play the game.

I just saw the name Paramout Group and had to read and reply about this thread......My advice for anyone considering using them is be careful very very careful and a google search of their practices might persuade you not to part with any hard earned cash. They have been spoken about on many blogs and forums and none of the comments are complimentary.

#70 User is offline   RLD Icon

  • Recording Tips Moderator & all around Groovy Dude
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Moderators
  • Posts: 1,715
  • Joined: 13-March 03

Posted 05 November 2010 - 04:23 PM

View PostBig Jim, on 05 November 2010 - 12:15 PM, said:

I just saw the name Paramout Group and had to read and reply about this thread......My advice for anyone considering using them is be careful very very careful and a google search of their practices might persuade you not to part with any hard earned cash. They have been spoken about on many blogs and forums and none of the comments are complimentary.

John Paragreen from this site uses them often and likes the results.
Recipient of Coveted Muse's Muse Awards
Lyrics & Music Writer of the Year 2004/2005
Most Likely To Succeed 2005/2007
Song of the Year 2005/2008/2009

Grissom: "Pupa, stage three." Crime Scene Montage 2
Pop/Rock Tunes
Surf Music
Crystal's Story

#71 User is offline   Big Jim Icon

  • Contributing Muse
  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 44
  • Joined: 22-March 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted 05 November 2010 - 05:02 PM

View PostRLD, on 05 November 2010 - 09:23 PM, said:

View PostBig Jim, on 05 November 2010 - 12:15 PM, said:

I just saw the name Paramout Group and had to read and reply about this thread......My advice for anyone considering using them is be careful very very careful and a google search of their practices might persuade you not to part with any hard earned cash. They have been spoken about on many blogs and forums and none of the comments are complimentary.

John Paragreen from this site uses them often and likes the results.



I respect an individuals opinion......just asking people to check all alternatives first and do their research before parting with any cash. Many people from other places have a completely different view.

#72 User is offline   Prosperity Icon

  • Muse In Training
  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 1
  • Joined: 06-November 10
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Quebec,Canada

Posted 11 November 2010 - 10:09 PM

Hi all!


I've used Paramount Group in 2003, my experience with them was satisfying. They took about three months to make my demos which was expected.I was happy with the results of my demos considering I only used one instrument.
The demos were more than what I expected,I also received in the package a certificate stating "This is to certify that the melodies we have set to the songs are original and have not and will not be set to any other songs"
Signed Norman Daniels.I have all rights to my songs.

They also sent a list of music publishers to contact myself, I didn't have any misleading info to get me to use their service a demo service. I don't know what the claim to be or changed since 2003.I haven't used them since due to the reason of co-writing with an artist.If I needed to I would consider them again.

Hope this info helps, but do read the fine print when signing.

#73 User is offline   Big Jim Icon

  • Contributing Muse
  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 44
  • Joined: 22-March 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted 26 November 2010 - 06:08 AM

View PostProsperity, on 12 November 2010 - 03:09 AM, said:

Hi all!


I've used Paramount Group in 2003, my experience with them was satisfying. They took about three months to make my demos which was expected.I was happy with the results of my demos considering I only used one instrument.
The demos were more than what I expected,I also received in the package a certificate stating "This is to certify that the melodies we have set to the songs are original and have not and will not be set to any other songs"
Signed Norman Daniels.I have all rights to my songs.

They also sent a list of music publishers to contact myself, I didn't have any misleading info to get me to use their service a demo service. I don't know what the claim to be or changed since 2003.I haven't used them since due to the reason of co-writing with an artist.If I needed to I would consider them again.

Hope this info helps, but do read the fine print when signing.



I am happy for you......2003 was however a long time ago......

I would be very interested to hear the demo and find out how much it cost. I also am puzzled as to how it takes 3 months to produce a demo...this seems a very long time....meanwhile you might be interested in this report on Paramount.
http://www.ripoffrep...-scam-ggg72.htm
Do a google...there are plenty more reports like that. I am very suspicious of people who defend them......some of these people do not check out as being legit....some actually MAY have ties with the said Paramount?.....

#74 User is offline   Black Icon

  • Inspirational Muse
  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 330
  • Joined: 20-October 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Derry, New Hampshire
  • Interests:Make A Sound! [We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.]

Posted 23 December 2010 - 11:35 AM

Been there. Years ago.

Dreadfully awful to hear of any others feeling my pain.

Say, Classmates just experienced a class action suit out of New York.

Hmm . . .
Enjoy . . . Black: llr (Evan Tyler's Dad)

Make A Sound! [We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.]

#75 User is offline   sooty Icon

  • Muse In Training
  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 1
  • Joined: 20-March 11

Posted 24 March 2011 - 06:21 AM

Hi
Here's my experience with Paramount. I'm a writer from Australia and I want to crack the Nashville market so I sent 2 songs to Paramount. They sent me a letter saying "Wow, what great songs, we believe they have hit potential blah, blah, blah, we are offering you single song contracts HOWEVER the demos you sent are not "Nashville" standard, therefore we need to record them again and this will cost you x amount of dollars." Same old story other than the fact the demos I sent were recorded by one of Australia's top country music producers. (He wasn't too offended when I told him- I think he realised it's a scam!)

I didn't sign the contracts but i was dying to know what they considered "Nashville" standard, so i took advantage of a "discount" they were offering which was a 7 piece band demo for about $350 (great value for an Aussie) so I sent them a new song which I hadn't demo'd properly yet. About 3 months later I got a letter saying the song had been forwarded to a demo house and should be ready in 10 days. About a month later I got the demo in the mail and it was pretty good, but it wasn't recorded by them, it was sent to a demo house! I wish I knew which demo house it was as I could've sent it straight to them, got it quicker and paid less. By the way, they didn't offer me a contract for that song, why is that?

But wait, there's more. I got a letter from them a couple of days ago saying that my song was outstanding (not good enough for a contract, obviously) and they want to include it on a compilation CD of the best demos they've recorded this year (why can't I get a contract for this song??) "and here's even better news...we have managed to keep each writer's share of mastering and production costs down to only $89". I usually get paid for having my songs on CDs not the other way around.

I gather that what they are doing is not illegal, they are simply a middle man between the writer and the demo studios. They made a bit of effort to get money out of me and it worked but I got a good demo out of it. I won't use them again, however.

#76 User is offline   DeeDee Icon

  • Inspirational Muse
  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 489
  • Joined: 05-January 11
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Carrickfergus, N.Ireland
  • Interests:songwriting, music, psychology, reading, food, wine, movies, television and comedy

Posted 24 March 2011 - 04:45 PM

Hi there

I just wanted to say that I have used Paramount Group for two of my demos. 'Your Love' and 'Cold Sore Coming', which you can hear at this link:http://www.reverbnation.com/deedeehughes. They charged $189 for one vocalist and one instrument. (the steel guitar on 'Your Love' was added by a musician I know who was learning how to use it and offered his services)

I was happy enough with the results, but it seemed to take forever to receive the demos. When I thought they should have arrived, I received another letter asking for the final version of the song, which delayed things further.

I was also provided with a list of music publishers to contact (which I presume were 'the best efforts to help make your song(s) successful', as written in the contract)and an offer to include my song in a compilation cd several weeks later for an additional charge. Thankfully, I had done a bit of research on Paramount in the interim, and discovered that this is routine and not necessarily a measure of how good your song is, so I declined their offer.

I have a contract for another 3 of my songs, and may use their services again because their demos seem to be of good quality (although I have no means of comparison really) and I have no other options at the moment. Hope that helps!

#77 User is offline   Neal K Icon

  • Smile. It'll do you good.
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Moderators
  • Posts: 4,271
  • Joined: 20-November 01
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kelowna, BC, Canada

Posted 25 March 2011 - 01:57 PM

Paramount Group is simply a company that provides demo services. If you like the quality of what they do (always ask for samples) and you think it's a good deal, go for it. Personally, I believe there are companies out there who charge less or about the same and do a much better job. All the other stuff - the flattery, the contests, the contracts, the compliation CDs - that's all worthless.

Neal
The forest would be silent if only the best birds sang.

#78 User is offline   Roger Icon

  • Active Muse
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 160
  • Joined: 13-June 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Nashville, TN

Posted 13 June 2011 - 09:00 AM

Thought I would jump in & contribute on this topic. I'm a pro writer, full time in Nashville since '85.

There's a lot on this topic, good & bad, and a lot of information that's either wrong or stated incorrectly. Part of it seems to be a bit of confusion regarding what a demo service is, & what you can reasonably expect from them. First off, as several have mentioned on here, never pay somebody for a cowrite. Period. Never. Ever. Aside from the potential legal entanglements that might (and probably will) come up, it's a prostitution of the creative process at it's most basic level & in my opinion is just morally & ethically wrong.

Having said that, there's nothing wrong with paying a company to demo your song for you, assuming the end product is commensurate with the cost. You should, however, not relinquish your publishing or writing rights to the song OR sign any sort of contract that covers anything except the demo itself (you provide the song & a certain fee and we'll provide you with a demo). That's basically all it should cover, your publishing or writer share should not be involved AT ALL. If they for some reason DO want your publishing, then they should pay for the demo themselves. Think of a demo company like an oil change place. They provide a service, & you pay for it. It doesn't mean because they change your oil that suddenly they own your car.

As I mentioned earlier, I've been doing this for a living in Nashville since '85 and I've never heard of this company, which should tell you something. I did check out their website & listened to a couple of their sample demos, and they sound pretty solid. Don't necessarily recommend their company, but don't have any specific reason to tell people to run away from them either. FYI, there are a number of places in town that provide a similar demo service, if it were me I'd contact several and get pricing. Cheapest is definitely not best, but at least you'd know you're not getting gouged either.

Hope this helps.

#79 User is offline   Producer Icon

  • Muse In Training
  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 1
  • Joined: 21-August 12

Posted 22 August 2012 - 12:24 PM

Paramount Music is an absolute den of thieves. I used to work as a producer for them under subcontract. From firsthand experience I can tell you exactly what they are about. It's just a handful of people in a small office who run a scam blowing smoke up people's rear end and do very generic canned demos. It could be a legitimate business if they would do away with all the shameless pandering and empty promises to their clients. The real kicker is that they woefully underpay their producers which obviously without them the whole thing would come to a screaming halt. Here is the rundown on what the producers are actually paid:

Vocal Plus 1 Instrument - $50
Vocal Plus 3 Instruments - $100
Vocal Plus 5 Instruments - $150
Vocal Plus 7 Instruments And 1 Harmony Vocal - $200

Yet, they expect them to actually produce a decent quality product for the peanuts they pay in return. No skilled producer in their right mind is going to spend any significant time on anything for that low of a fee. You get what you pay for.

David Robinson is now the "Creative Manager" and is the one that the producer's deal with directly. He delegates assignments and so forth and is the one who defines whether or not a song is acceptable to send to the client. The problem is that David is completely arbitrary and reactionary with what is acceptable. Assignments come with basic instructions and often times have on them something called "Producer's Discretion." This simply gives prerogative to the producer to change lyrics and so forth so that they flow better or honestly flow at all in some kind of rhythmic consistency. With a lot of what is sent in it is an absolute necessity to change things. I always use to kid with my demo singers about what the insane asylum was turning out this week. Some of the lyrics sent in were beyond comprehension they were so ridiculous. Cliches of cliches, zero rhythm whatsoever and entirely too many words. It would take an act of God to make a coherent melody out of a lot of what was sent in. Yet depending on how blue the sky was that day David might get upset because you dared to change the lyric on a "Producer's Discretion" assignment. Why? Simply because of one reason and that is it disrupted the blatant pandering done to the client and threatened their pocketbook being that if they offended the client they would then have to give them a refund. And they wouldn't even bother with a refund even it wasn't for the threat of being reported to the Better Business Bureau.

Most of the people who send in material are completely out of touch with reality and have cartoonish ideas about music, pop culture and Nashville. From my own personal experience I would say maybe 15% of what came in had the slightest hint of legitimacy to it. And that is probably a generous percentage. It was mind numbing how awful some of the material was. Yet, for the bread crumbs they throw out, Paramount actually expects their producers to sort this crap out, write music and a melody to it, record it and make the client happy. Then when the client doesn't like something (and it's always completely arbitrary) Paramount has the audacity to point their finger at the producer. It would be the same thing as if I said to someone "Go get me a car. I like blue cars so with that information you now know exactly what I want. You better not disappoint me." It's an absolute joke. There's supposedly a reason why these people are sending in their material; because they are obviously unable to do it and need help with something they know virtually nothing about. Yet, Paramount panders and kisses up to them so much it's as if they are making them the producer. All the while, most of them haven't the slightest clue how things really work and what goes into writing,composing and recording a legitimate song. Yet, Paramount just keeps on pandering to the nuts and screwing over the ones who make it all possible; the producers.

This is a morally and ethically bankrupt company to the core and I hope that anyone with an ounce of conscience would think twice about giving them any business. They are bottom feeders and if you do end up getting a decent demo it is by pure luck. I assure you, as a producer myself I was never passionate about doing my best. I simply couldn't afford to with what I was paid.

#80 User is offline   DJLONGMAN Icon

  • Muse In Training
  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 29
  • Joined: 21-August 11

Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:49 AM

I Wrote a Song about them Titled "That Paramount Scam"

I'm awaiting their reply as it's going on an Album .

I hate people like this , they have no contacts in the industry

No one would entertain a pitch from them

Once upon a time they used to send me C.D.s

With songs they had written, the songs were terrible

At that time I was working for a Publisher and part

of my job was to listen to some unsolicited Demo's

I'm going back ten years , these days the industry know they

are a couple of thieves , and a complete waste of time.

  • (2 Pages)
  • +
  • 1
  • 2

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users