[randybro]

I was wondering if anyone here knew anything of a company in Nasville called Paramount Group a music publishing company. I would like to find out if they are a reputable company or scam artist. I sent them one of my songs and they sent me a letter that says they liked my work but since I am just a lyrics writer they would get someone to put music to my words. This could cost anywhere from $150 for a single instrument and go up from there. That is not a large amount of money but still don't want to be scammed. Also they said that I would split 50/50 royalties (of writers royalties that is, if song was picked up) with music writer. This again doesn't seem unrealistic. Well any thoughts and ideas would be greatly appreciated thnks


My words can be viewed at itsonlywords.com under composer search randy33637
let me know what you think

[Kelli]

Here's a link to another forum that may help-

http://www.justplain...TML/000236.html

Also a lot of good info at tunesmith.net


Hope this gives you what you're looking for.

[JennyLeigh]

i have always read in every songwriter book/magazine i've seen, that anytime a music 'company' asks you for money to create music for your lyrics (or for any other reason), it is a scam. you should never pay someone else to collaborate with. don't pay them anything and run the other direction as fast as you can. if someone is really interested in promoting or producing your talent, they PAY YOU. not the other way around!

[randybro]

Thnks for your input Jenny will take your advice to heart have a great day

[Neal K]

Stay away from Paramount Group. They use "recycled" music tracks and just cram your words into them. Then they charge you high prices for the "demo". You'd be better off to find a musical collaborator to set your music to lyrics, then the two of you could split the cost to have a demo produced by a reputable company like "The Gator Hole" (Galen Breen) in Nashville. He's cheaper and, like, 1000 X better.

As for the 50/50 split of writers royalties, that is the industry standard. Usually the publisher gets 50 % and the writers get 50%. Of the 50% that the writers get, if there is a musician and a lyric writer, they usually split their share 50/50.

Neal

[Mary Dawson]

Hi Guys:

Sorry I haven't been around lately. Somehow, I've had trouble even logging into the message boards. Tonight has been the first time in several weeks that I've made it in.

This is a very good question and discussion. I think the information that has been shared is "right on." However, I do want to add a thought. If you are a lyricist only and really haven't been able to find a collaborator to write music, there are some legitimate producers in Nashville who will write music for your lyrics as a "work for hire." But that means that you need to understand what a "work for hire" is and have a proper contract that YOU generate to protect yourself. Basically, the contract should say that you are hiring the producer to create music and/or a demo of the completed song for an agreed price. Once you have paid that amount, the entire song -- both words and music -- belong to you. You will never have to split writers' royalties or even acknowledge them as a co-writer on the music or recordings.

The best advice, however, is to find a gifted musician/composer in your own area that you can learn to collaborate with. EVERY city is a "music city" and has gifted writers that you can meet if you simply learn to know your own music community. Join the nearest songwriters' group.....or go to a college or university music department....or church music department. Attend concerts, gigs, and programs. Learn who are the "artists" in your area. Then introduce yourself and see if you can set up a co-writing appointment. When you have completed your song, you will co-own the whole thing and -- as Neal said -- you can split both the costs and the income of the song.

I hope this helps a bit. This question is THE most frequently asked question I receive -- what to do if you only write lyrics? There are only two legitimate answers: 1) Learn to write your own music OR 2) Find someone else who can.

All the Best,
Mary

[NigeQ]

I am bumping this thread because questions about 'Paramount' seem to crop up from time to time and it would be a shame to lose the info

Nige

[Patient Dreams]

Lets get some music to it and then send it in. I'd think about copyrighting it just in case it is a scam.
Hell I'll give you a melody, just like seeing people make it.

[Len]

Yes this is timely as I have been thinking about submitting to Paramount (though their lyric upload is bust - bad sign). I was put on to them by another muser, so this is perhaps something we should all be kept aware of.

Find a music collaborator? NigeQ, you're my only hope

[Ian MG Smith]

special message for Ian MG Smith!

Thanks so much for contacting us regarding your songwriting. We're always glad to hear from emerging talent, because some of the world's greatest songs have been created through the talent of writers such as you. And we're happy to be a part of that. In fact, we've been in business in Nashville since 1983.
During that time, we've worked with writers who’ve had songs recorded by some of Nashville's top recording artists... Including Alabama, Loretta Lynn, George Jones, Tim McGraw, George Strait, Lee Ann Womack and many others. During the past year alone, we’ve helped over 20 writers get signed to publishing contracts. We'd like to see you achieve that kind of success!


All the Nashville recording stars love to get great songs to record. And at Paramount, we're in the middle of it all... right on Nashville's famous Music Row, where the music pros work daily to create Nashville's famous music heard around the world.

Here on historic 16th Avenue, there's an awesome collection of talent and music business professionals. There are no fewer than ten state-of-the-art recording studios, eight major music publishers and some of Nashville's hottest record producers.

Just down the street are Curb, MCA, Mercury and Warner Brothers Records. The recently-combined Sony and BMG Music Groups (Columbia, Epic, Monument, Arista, BNA and RCA Records) are only a block away on 17th Avenue.

We can help you get your songs to them all. But first things first. First: whether you write both words and music or words only, you need professional demo recordings. And you must be able to get those demos of your songs to the people who can get them commercially recorded. Record companies and recording artists do not accept songs from writers they don't know. They do accept them from us. And we regularly send them songs of writers we work with.

If you're a lyric writer, your lyrics must have music. No recording artist or record company will accept lyrics without music. Fortunately, some of Nashville's best melody writers work with Paramount in putting melodies to lyrics. If you have the kinds of lyrics Nashville is looking for, we'll have them put your lyrics together with their music, then we'll help you with recordings and the total process of becoming a successful songwriter in your own right.

And don't think you can't make it in the world of music! Every successful songwriter had doubts at some point, but stuck with the dream. In fact, Paramount songwriter Craig Martin, who wrote Tim McGraw's "Don't Take the Girl," told me he went through some really rough times, and wondered if he'd ever make it. But he stuck to his writing, and one day it clicked. Tim McGraw heard Craig's song and the rest is history. Next, it could be your turn for success! We'd like to help you with it.

Now that you know what we do, the next move toward getting your big break in the music world is up to you. First, you need to send us some of your work for our FREE evaluation. If you write words, but not music, you may send them to us by postal mail, or on line at:
http://www.paramount...Info-Thanks.php

If your songs are complete with both words and music, you may upload to us at:
http://www.paramount...Info-Thanks.php

Or you may send us a cassette tape or CD, with lyric sheets, via postal mail or other physical delivery. A single instrument and vocal--or just your voice without music will be fine to communicate your songs. Please include lyrics typed or printed on plain white paper (fancy paper or unusual type fonts can make your lyrics harder to read).

Please don't send us sheet music or lead sheets. Nashville professionals prefer to work with their own charts. And please send no more than four songs for evaluation at this time. We know it's difficult to select just four if you have a lot of songs, but if everybody sent us a big stack of material, we wouldn't be able to find the time to go through it all. Of course, after we've evaluated the first ones you've sent, we may invite you to send more. If you're concerned about sending material you haven't registered a copyright on, see the P.S. below for two ways to protect your work.

With a tremendous number of recording sessions coming up very soon in Nashville, it is very important that we hear from you right away if you're serious about getting your songs recorded.

Best Regards,
--
Norm Daniels, Creative Director
Paramount Group/Nashville
For the latest on songwriting and Nashville, check out:
http://www.paramountsong.com


Mailing address: PO Box 23705-N, Nashville TN 37202
Express Delivery: 1505 16th Ave South, Nashville TN 37212

P.S.: If you're concerned about sending work you haven't registered a copyright on, we suggest you do one or both of the following. 1) Send a copy of your song(s) to yourself via registered or certified mail and don't open the envelope when you get it. Put it in a safe place and keep it. 2) Have a notary public or other official who can legally attest to documents sign and date your lyrics. Either method can provide proof that you had the work in your possession as of a certain date. And if no one else had it before then, only you could have written it.

*** Then the followups came. Hell, I'll take FREE compliments from anyone!

[airun]

Maybe nobody has sent in fantastic songs that would be worthy of a big star singer
So thats why there's been no big deals for anybody out of paramount
Just my thoughts, probably 99% sent in some cliche written unmasterpiece

[Neal K]

airun, on Sep 16 2007, 09:54 AM, said:

Maybe nobody has sent in fantastic songs that would be worthy of a big star singer
So thats why there's been no big deals for anybody out of paramount
Just my thoughts, probably 99% sent in some cliche written unmasterpiece

But that's the whole point we're trying to make. Paramount will "accept" those crappy, cliche songs and tell the writer how great they are, then get the writer to shell out a few hundred books for a crappy demo. Paramount is not about publishing songs worthy of a big star singer; they are about feeding on the dreams of the not-so-big, unknown but hopeful songwriter.

Neal

[Michael Franks]

I just ran across this thread and thought I'd comment about this Paramount operation.

While browsing the net, I ran across their website and flipped through to see what they were all about. In their song contest page, I noticed a name familiar to this board. It seems a John Paragreen was a First Place winner in their latest song writing contest.

I assume this is the same John who frequents this board. Maybe he'd care to comment about it?

[Len]

Well, for info, seeing that John did get a win and therefore this is not completely a cowboy outfit, I entered in their August comp.

I've paid my $20, submitted other lyrics for consideration, and now I'm sitting back, waiting to hear. Interestingly, I've had no confirmation that they have received the competition lyric, my other lyrics, or the funds. As a minimum I would expect a receipt, but I think they are a bit loose and disorganised; judging by the website, this is not a big outfit. I agree with the thought that they probably make a reasonable profit from selling hope to up and coming songwriters, and I would not pay for a demo myself. They are probably in the job of fishing for the rare new talent that may wander through their doors, but in that respect they are probably not much different than many other companies in the music business.

I'll let you all know how it progresses...

[John Paragreen]

Some musers asked me to comment on Paramount Group,I've read heeps of bad press about them,but like my dad told me not to smoke and drink,I prefer to try things out for myself.I went in with an open mind,they are a company like any other, the aim is to make profit,chances are if you send a lyric they will offer a contract to produce a demo for you,and try to inflate your ego,I've had many offers but have had two done and two more are in the making,the quality of thier demos is first class.to achieve quality they HIRE pro musicians,
Like taking a car for a service(if I had one) I wouldn't expect the mechanic to work for free so neither do I expect pro musicians to put music to my words for free,(my muse collab buddies get a kiss in the wind)
They say they will pitch songs,I dont know if they do or do not, and really I dont care,this is a hobby to me,my next door neighbour plays golf and spends huge sums on clubs/green fees etc,I'm happy to spend a few bucks on a lyric that I feel will make a good song,so far I've not been let down.plus I am a great believer in word of mouth as a means of pitching anything,if a song is good enough the musicians who work on it will tell friends and they will tell friends,news spreads fast I'm not a knocking on doors type person.
Winning first prize was the first time I've made a dime out of writing lyrics,
111 dollars plus a 350 demo equivilent to close on 500 dollars, but the greedy bank took 15 bucks to process the cheque.

My advice to people is to consider every angle before parting with hard earned coin.if you think Paramount Group or any of the fee based studios(there are many)are the gateway to stardom then think again,they are not,spend your money on a new suit or a dream hand bag, but if you have confidence that your lyric will make a good song,and you want the thrill of listening to it and letting your friends hear it, and you can afford it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,go for it.
All in all I've spent less than some people spend on lottery tickets over a year,but I have a collection of songs which I am very proud to be part of,

this is all I'm saying on this thread,
good luck,john.

[NigeQ]

If this were radio – I would now press the Hallelujah Chorus jingle

Thanks chaps, now we are getting some info

[RLD]

Quote

this is a hobby to me,my next door neighbour plays golf and spends huge sums on clubs/green fees etc,I'm happy to spend a few bucks on a lyric that I feel will make a good song,

Hey John, I think that is a good analogy...
My problem is I love music and golf...

[Len]

Okay, some updates on Paramount.

I submitted four lyrics to them (free of charge via their website). They sent back a letter and a contract. The letter starts (their underlines): "What great lyrics you've sent us", (so far, so good ), "In fact, we believe the talent you've displayed has outstanding hit song potential. So much so that we're happy to award you a songwriting contract which we have enclosed..."

The contract requires you to pay for their demo services.

I also entered their paid lyric comp and was send another letter informing me that it had already won the "Director's Award" and was still in line for the Grand Prize and First Prizes. The prize for the Directors Award was another contract, a discount voucher fo demos, and a bookmark.

My thoughts on this; my lyrics (unbelievably good as they surely are) certainly don't deserve the gushing praise and I suspect that this is a bulk produced mailing material, sent to everyone. I wonder if they would have sent me a contract if I sent them a really awful lyric (anyone want to try?). I don't like this. Sending such material out is misleading and sharp marketing in my opinion, designed to take advantage of people's credulity. The contract however is clear that the price of the demo must be paid. Caveat emptor.

However, they did also send out a useful leaflet on how Nashville works. I thought it was good and was written in a calm and straghtforward way. They even address why they charge for demos.

Them's the facts, judge as you see fit.

As for paying for demos, John's got it right. Pay for them to get music for your own pleasure, don't pay for them because you believe their marketing about the hit potential.

[Sawnrider]

Hi songwriting friends! Just to let you know, I am Craig Martin! And the Paramount group is a demo house scam. I have just learned recently that they are using my name for bait! Well good god did they ever pick the wrong person to use! I have never been a writer for Paramout group! Stay far far away! My writer friends and I have a site you can check out if you want good friendly info. www.nashvillestraightline.com Thank you Jodi for letting me in! And keep writing everyone!

CJM

Ian MG Smith, on Aug 12 2007, 01:01 PM, said:

special message for Ian MG Smith!

Thanks so much for contacting us regarding your songwriting. We're always glad to hear from emerging talent, because some of the world's greatest songs have been created through the talent of writers such as you. And we're happy to be a part of that. In fact, we've been in business in Nashville since 1983.
During that time, we've worked with writers who’ve had songs recorded by some of Nashville's top recording artists... Including Alabama, Loretta Lynn, George Jones, Tim McGraw, George Strait, Lee Ann Womack and many others. During the past year alone, we’ve helped over 20 writers get signed to publishing contracts. We'd like to see you achieve that kind of success!


All the Nashville recording stars love to get great songs to record. And at Paramount, we're in the middle of it all... right on Nashville's famous Music Row, where the music pros work daily to create Nashville's famous music heard around the world.

Here on historic 16th Avenue, there's an awesome collection of talent and music business professionals. There are no fewer than ten state-of-the-art recording studios, eight major music publishers and some of Nashville's hottest record producers.

Just down the street are Curb, MCA, Mercury and Warner Brothers Records. The recently-combined Sony and BMG Music Groups (Columbia, Epic, Monument, Arista, BNA and RCA Records) are only a block away on 17th Avenue.

We can help you get your songs to them all. But first things first. First: whether you write both words and music or words only, you need professional demo recordings. And you must be able to get those demos of your songs to the people who can get them commercially recorded. Record companies and recording artists do not accept songs from writers they don't know. They do accept them from us. And we regularly send them songs of writers we work with.

If you're a lyric writer, your lyrics must have music. No recording artist or record company will accept lyrics without music. Fortunately, some of Nashville's best melody writers work with Paramount in putting melodies to lyrics. If you have the kinds of lyrics Nashville is looking for, we'll have them put your lyrics together with their music, then we'll help you with recordings and the total process of becoming a successful songwriter in your own right.

And don't think you can't make it in the world of music! Every successful songwriter had doubts at some point, but stuck with the dream. In fact, Paramount songwriter Craig Martin, who wrote Tim McGraw's "Don't Take the Girl," told me he went through some really rough times, and wondered if he'd ever make it. But he stuck to his writing, and one day it clicked. Tim McGraw heard Craig's song and the rest is history. Next, it could be your turn for success! We'd like to help you with it.

Now that you know what we do, the next move toward getting your big break in the music world is up to you. First, you need to send us some of your work for our FREE evaluation. If you write words, but not music, you may send them to us by postal mail, or on line at:
http://www.paramount...Info-Thanks.php

If your songs are complete with both words and music, you may upload to us at:
http://www.paramount...Info-Thanks.php

Or you may send us a cassette tape or CD, with lyric sheets, via postal mail or other physical delivery. A single instrument and vocal--or just your voice without music will be fine to communicate your songs. Please include lyrics typed or printed on plain white paper (fancy paper or unusual type fonts can make your lyrics harder to read).

Please don't send us sheet music or lead sheets. Nashville professionals prefer to work with their own charts. And please send no more than four songs for evaluation at this time. We know it's difficult to select just four if you have a lot of songs, but if everybody sent us a big stack of material, we wouldn't be able to find the time to go through it all. Of course, after we've evaluated the first ones you've sent, we may invite you to send more. If you're concerned about sending material you haven't registered a copyright on, see the P.S. below for two ways to protect your work.

With a tremendous number of recording sessions coming up very soon in Nashville, it is very important that we hear from you right away if you're serious about getting your songs recorded.

Best Regards,
--
Norm Daniels, Creative Director
Paramount Group/Nashville
For the latest on songwriting and Nashville, check out:
http://www.paramountsong.com


Mailing address: PO Box 23705-N, Nashville TN 37202
Express Delivery: 1505 16th Ave South, Nashville TN 37212

P.S.: If you're concerned about sending work you haven't registered a copyright on, we suggest you do one or both of the following. 1) Send a copy of your song(s) to yourself via registered or certified mail and don't open the envelope when you get it. Put it in a safe place and keep it. 2) Have a notary public or other official who can legally attest to documents sign and date your lyrics. Either method can provide proof that you had the work in your possession as of a certain date. And if no one else had it before then, only you could have written it.

*** Then the followups came. Hell, I'll take FREE compliments from anyone!

[Sawnrider]

Len, on Oct 15 2007, 01:21 AM, said:

Dear Lean, First off my name is not Chris. It's Craig. I dont build websites nor am I building that one. I am 1/5th of the company as well as a writer/advisor for them. Do you really call $100 a year wasting money for good sound information from professionals? You must have been one who spent thousands of $ with Paramount or some other scam outfit. And by the way I have never worked for Paramount! but if you would like to keep spreading that rumor I will gladly bring you in on the lawsuit I have against them. This is a blog for songwriters so I thought! Well I have written 4 #1 songs have been nominated for every award in the business, and I have at least a dozen of my songs recorded by major artists every year. Why would I want to take advice from some blogger/songwriter who hides their face behind a horse head?
Have a nice day!

Craig J Martin
Thanks Chris.

To save others the trouble, I've checked out your website and I note that to subscribe for a year will cost almost 100$ for a emailed newsletter. It offers advice, interviews with other songwriters, and lyric/song critiques (at extra charge?).

The site claim to be: THE WORLDS #1 INFORMATIVE MAGAZINE FOR SONGWRITERS AND LYRICISTS! but there is no content (looking at your content listing for the next issue on 19th Oct, leads to a page "under construction")

I'm being cynical here, but aren't you advising people how to avoid wasting their money ... by spending 100$?

Are you the same Chris Martin that worked at Paramount? If I was them and being cunning, I would employ someone with the same name as a famous songwriter (or even get someone to change their name).

Can I also offer some advice on marketing copy? The more! exclamation marks! that you use! the more you sound like a carnival hawker!!! I wouldn't share a bar with someone who spoke like that, let alone pay money to them. Perhaps it's a US/UK thing...

[sw fla chip]

I checked out Craig's web site too, and I found it a bit peculiar. First of all, why would a songwriter of smash hits, along with other respected songwriters, put together a site that is so sloppy and incomplete? Craig, I humbly suggest taking some of that money you have earned from your hits and hiring a pro web design team. And put some links to your credentials so people can see you are for real.
Craig, as for your "Why would I take advice from a blogger?" comment, that comes across as particularly abulsive given your status in the songwriting business. You post to a forum but twice, conveniently showing up in a thread on a scam to offer something supposedly better, and in your second post you begin attacking when someone asks for particulars about your new, for-profit site. Just seems a tad think-skinned for a successful songwriter to act that way.
Now, I'll freely admit that I'm no songwriting expert, and I don't aspire to much more than being able to gig when I want, record when I can, and share some good vibes along the way. But I do know a thing or two about professional writing and design, including as it relates to web sites, so I thought I needed to enter this conversation.

[Sawnrider]

Hi Chip, Here goes, Both you and Len found my reply to him abusive. I don't see it. He started off his response to my first post with "To save others the trouble" What kind of remark is that? Like he's supposed to go out front and check out the foregrounds and come back and everyone is supposed to listen? And you say...... "I conveniently showed up in a thread on a scam to offer something supposedly better" Not Hardly there my friend! I was reasearching Paramount's fraudulent use of my name when I came across this site on a Google search, and just thought I would fill the readers in on what I knew about it. Seems like all you folks do on here is cut down what everyone else is doing. Alot of bitterness going on here. I don't think I want any more to do with it.

As far as our website goes, I'm sorry that you don't think its up to par. The niece of one of my parters is building that site for our company! she's just young and looking for a chance. I think it's looks just fine. Maybe you are right and I should take your advice and hire a professional web team. Maybe down the road we will, I just don't see a need for it right now. It's like when you see the NEW session guitar players come into the studio with thier $6000 acoustic guitars, bragging about all of the beautiful pearl inlays and million dollar finsh and the gold plated tuner keys! All you can say to them is "How are you gonna get that stuff on tape?" This website isn't about shine! It's about helping other songwriters. We've been putting it out now for 9 months and with no website at all we have over 4500 subscribers. just by word of mouth and a few magazine ads. So I don't guess that the website is going to hurt it any.

We don't need money, we just want to help people sidestep the obsticals that we all had to go through. Like it or not, Thank you for your input and have a great day.

Craig J Martin

[bubblingsoul]

Are you the Craig Martin who wrote the song recorded by Tim McGraw that Paramount eludes to in the copy on their site?

Sorry, but we've had quite a few fly by nights here, so a straight answer would be lovely.

~Bubbles

[Sawnrider]

The Same

[Salley Gardens]

Sawnrider, on Oct 15 2007, 08:34 PM, said:

I was reasearching Paramount's fraudulent use of my name when I came across this site on a Google search, and just thought I would fill the readers in on what I knew about it.

I noticed they have another company and webiste, http://www.parmusic.com/ , that offers similar services, perhaps to another part of the market.

I wonder how many other companies they have that are harder to identify.

[Jodi Krangle]

Hi guys. Just wanted to chime in here. Craig and I had a brief email conversation when he was allowed to participate in the boards here. As some of you may not know, I actually scrutinize each and every application to the message boards to make sure that we're not getting inundated with spam - and it seems to have worked very well. That problem has gone away.

When Craig and I were emailing, I told him that you guys were a friendly bunch and I hoped he'd stick around beyond defending his name - which was, he informed me, the main reason he wanted to join - to clear up some misinformation Paramount was spreading about him. Guys, please don't prove me wrong.

I'm perfectly fine with his reason for joining. Anyone should definitely be able to defend their good name. I don't know anything about his site, but I'm sure it could be useful to some. I know we're all biased into believing everything on the 'net should be free ... but that's not always the case. Of course, researching what you're paying for is always a good idea. But try to keep the confrontational accusations down to a minimum, ok?

Thanks, guys. And welcome, Craig. I think a lot of the response you've gotten here has to do with the fact that a great many songwriters have been taken pretty badly by swindlers in one way or another. We're turning into a cynical bunch.

You know what might be great? If you could tell us some GOOD news about the industry. It would be wonderful to hear some *happy* stories, don't you think? And since you've had some hits, maybe you could tell us some stories behind those hits? How they came to be, what elements played a part, how it worked out - that kind of thing?

I, for one, would love to hear about it.

All the best,

--Jodi

Sawnrider, on Oct 16 2007, 07:12 AM, said:

The Same

[Len]

Hi all,

I owe Sawnrider an apology.

I checked out Craig J Martin's MySpace site Craig Martin and sent him a message to see if he was the same as Sawnrider. And he is the same.

So Craig, this my public apology for treating you like a spammer.

In which case, advice from someone with such credentials is a worthwhile service

Best of luck with the venture

[Sawnrider]

My apologies are offered as well. What do you say to a new start guys? Hi I'm Craig, nice to meet ya.

[bubblingsoul]

Welcome!

~Bubbles

Phew! Aren't we glad we got THAT business outta the way?

[Salley Gardens]

Sawnrider, on Oct 16 2007, 03:17 PM, said:

Hi I'm Craig, nice to meet ya.

It's nice to meet you, too! Have you had a chance to look at Parmusic? Your name is bandied about on that site as well.

[bubblingsoul]

http://www.parmusic.com/About-Us.php

and

http://www.paramount...com/contact.php

Both have the same physical address. Only one lists a phone number. Their logos are also very similar. Maybe they are in the process of reinventing themselves.

(615) 269-3710

Hey! I just cut and paste and didn't purposely make it bigger and bolder. Must have been magic or for some higher purpose, so I better leave it just the way it is.

Anywho. Paramount Group tried to take me for a ride a while back (like Fall of 2003). When I spoke with the contact person on the phone, he was very pushy, rude and wouldn't answer my legitimate questions. When he told me, "If you can't make a simple decision about signing a contract with us - you'll never make it in this business." I hung up and vowed that I would post my experience for others to see. (Which I did shortly after that phone call . . . and again now.)

Perhaps he won't "make it" in this business either.

Slime.

~Bubbles

[sw fla chip]

I, too, wish to apologize to Craig, and for my bitterness and cynicism in general lately.
I've posted a few times lately in a rather jaded way - don't know what has gotten into me. My life is fine - great job, great family, taking my music at a nice pace and it's leading me into some cool places ... yet I have lately been tearing down instead of building up. I took that out on Craig and in another post earlier about the 50 most annoying songs.
No excuses, I'm just going to try to be nicer and less judgmental.

[bubblingsoul]

Ya know what, Chip? I've learned over the years, that we all go through spells like that. But what makes us different, near as I can tell, is that we are one classy bunch. Well, most of us anyways.

Not only would we fight vehemently FOR each other (and with each other on occasion), we also have the honor and class to make apologies and amends for the good of all involved.

THAT is true professionalism.

THAT is true integrity.

And THAT is why I remain a Muser.

Well, that, and the fact that I have this lovely new Muse tat that says so! j/k

Truly hope Craig chooses to stick around and see that for himself.

~Bubbles

[Susan R]

I tend to do things ass backwards. So it should not come as a suprise I got my first paying gig as a studio musician at a demo factory in NYC. This was back in the 60's. I am a 3rd generation musician which pretty much explains it (I was well trained).

People have been paying to have their songs demo'd for a long time and the old saying "you get what you paid for" holds true.

Very seldom did we ever get an arrangement. Most of the time we'd get a lead sheet and have to work out the parts in just a few minuets. Most of the songs were forgettable at best. Many were just plain bad. Our job was to make them sound as good as we could. I do know we were helping to make their dreams come true. And when you get down to the nitty gritty, this entire business is based on dreams.

And now I am writing songs. Kind of reminds me of an old joke ... Yesterday I couldn't spell songwriter, now I are one.

[roxhythe]

Hey, nice exchanges here--I am glad y'all are being polite about this. Lots of good information, too.

I ran across Paramount Group years ago, when I had the idea that all I had to do was enter songs in a contest and I could get fame and fortune (and all the fun stuff that goes with it). I never did enter Paramount's contest (I got burned out on contests pretty fast), and I did end up hearing lots of stuff about Paramount's come-ons, none of it good. I did have their Website bookmarked for a long time, to remind me you can look good without being nice.

Yes, a lot of this stuff is built on dreams, and I think I agree there's a place for it. My main objection, I think, is when somebody is promising something they can't deliver, and know they can't deliver, and is relying on the customer not knowing enough to know they can't deliver. Isuppose that they charge rather a lot of money for it really isn't an issue. A lot of outfits in Nashville charge a lot of money for their services, and I have simply just not used them.

I did run into a sweet little old lady some time back, who had written a song and had had it demoed by Paramount, and sent it to me (I forget why--it might have been that she'd written some more lyrics and was looking for somebody to write music to them, which I sometimes am able to do). She was especially impressed with the nice things the folks at Paramount had to say about her lyrics. The lyrics, in my opinion, were pretty bad. Paramount had done a pretty decent job of setting 'em to fairly conventional music, and the recording was competent. Nothing special, but the lyricist was impressed, and that's what counted. She had had her lyrics set to music and recorded by a Real Live Nashville Studio Band, and she could share that with family and friends, and that was good. (And she had ignored all the promises about a career in country music, and that was good, too.)

Best advice I could give her was, "Y'know, you could probably get the demo done cheaper closer to home." Which, of course, she was probably not going to do.

Joe

[zmulls]

What a lovely thread this turned out to be. I'm glad Craig is sticking around (and thanks, Jodi, for descending from the mountaintop to intervene).

Most of the threads would have afforded him a warmer welcome, but this specific thread was about spammers and scammers (hey, what a great song title....). And there's much suspicion of a brand new member (posts < 5) who claims to be a famous songwriter. Heck, what are the chances he turned out to be the real deal.

One thing we need more of on this board is a professional perspective. Many of us are amateurs, and will stay so, but one wants to know what it's like "out there" and how things get done, in case the Muse is gracious to us.

[TreyLLL]

Just wanted to send you all a 'many thanks' for restoring my faith in the Real-World concept of sharing and caring. The repore and comraderie in all phases of the on-going 'Reply' thread, regarding the Paramount Group, was refreshing and informative. I was seriously thinking of submitting several of my songs to them.

Frankly, I believe I'd have a much more rewarding experience by submitting them to this forum, and living with each of your earnest and honest critique. I think I'd enjoy the experience, as one of those chance in a lifetime, to trust the Muse in all of us, as authors and critics alike. At the least, I would imagine we would come away from such an experience, enlightened, awed, or disappointed. Whatever the results, one cannot help but be intrigued...I'm game.

Discussion?

TreyLLL

[nikkilee]

Hey yall...I was recently (as in yesterday) almost con'd..by Paramount. I got online this morning and found alot of unhappy campers..Then I saw the lies about Craig and all that..Good thing I found out now, because I had my check and contract and everything already sealed up in the envelope ready to go out Monday morning. Thanks for the heads up...But now what? Where to start, where to go...help?? lol

[Salley Gardens]

Yea! Nikkilee dodged the Paramount bullet!

Where to start? Write like a fiend, be a perpetual student of your art *and* business (legalities, taxes, marketing), create your own opportunities by getting your work produced any way you can, even for free to start with....

Oh, yeah, welcome to the Muse... you're already off to a great start!

[nikkilee]

Thanks guys very welcomed, I feel.

Hey, Roy, who did you say you did those demo's through?

[sdhwebresources]

Hello, be very careful of distant recording studios. I was stationed in Korea and sent one of my songs to a company in Nashville, Tennessee. I requested the guy to use my voice for vocal harmony backgrounds and put instrumental music to the song. He told me he will. When he sent the final product back to me it was an old lady's voice singing my song and the music was very traditional. He used someone else's voice when I asked him not too. I told him I was disappointed and would like my money back. He jipped me off $350 big ones.

Some people say that the best recording producers are in Nashville, Tennessee, but that is not true. There are lots of producers all over the United States. You just have to shop around. But try to select a producer in your local area.

Another thing 50/50 rights is quite a lot of rights to be taking from the original artist. I am working with a producer who is not taking my rights at all and their is no contracts. He is doing the music, editing/mixing, recording, and Master CD. I have to publish and market the CD myself and I have a friend who is teaching me how to do that.

I hope this helps.

[blindcommissioner]

hi everyone

just my experience with paramount.

i too got a contract from the first set of songs i'd sent anyone, the standard letter that someone posted on the thread. I was really tempted to take them up on their offer of a professional demo. I then did some searching on the net and found a lot of bad comments about them. My view and the view of others I contacted who did work with them is that their main business is as a demo service and they use the publishing card to try and get songwriters to pay for a demo. If you're after a professional demo then they be fine, but i doubt they push songs to publishers.

the number of people they send contracts to seems to be very high

[PaDrano]

Hello, I too have come in contact with Paramount and was not looking for a contract but looking to have my song critiqued by music professionals. I sent my song un-mastered to them to get feedback and got nothing for two weeks. My wife calls me at work to tell me I have a record deal waiting for me when I get home. The record company is not Paramount it is a StarTune Record Contract. I have no interest in what they offer but did like the tip sheet they sent me and hope they continue to send them. I did all the work and have no interest in giving someone money when I can do it myself. Their offer was to post it on iTunes and Amazon web pages and master it for me all for the low price of $189.00. Of course in the letter they said they love the song and see a bright future for me and look forward to our relationship. I’m not sure if this is a scam or not. Now I have been close to signing a real contract with an A & R group. The communication was fantastic and I felt the love and new them by their first names. It was a comfortable fit with business and friendship. I felt a big risk of having to pay back moneys though if the records did not do well and felt I needed to have a back up plan before putting my family at risk for a possible disaster. I did not sign the dotted line that day. The Paramount group/StarTune Record Contract seems like a cookie cutout quick mailer to me. I hope someone can use my info and I wish you well in your future record deals.

Blessings - PaDrano

[Neal K]

PaDrano, on 13 July 2010 - 08:31 PM, said:

I felt a big risk of having to pay back moneys though if the records did not do well and felt I needed to have a back up plan before putting my family at risk for a possible disaster.

No legitimate contract would have you pay back money if records do not sell. That's because legitimate publishers and record companies do not ask you for any money up front. The pay for the recordings and recoup their investment through sales. It's their risk, not yours.

Neal

[PaDrano]

Neal K, on 14 July 2010 - 12:59 PM, said:

PaDrano, on 13 July 2010 - 08:31 PM, said:

I felt a big risk of having to pay back moneys though if the records did not do well and felt I needed to have a back up plan before putting my family at risk for a possible disaster.

No legitimate contract would have you pay back money if records do not sell. That's because legitimate publishers and record companies do not ask you for any money up front. The pay for the recordings and recoup their investment through sales. It's their risk, not yours.

Neal

Yes Neal you are correct. There is more to the story and I did not clarify myself vary well on the matter but if you would like me to tell the complete story I should start a new thread or I can give you more detail by e-mail. I learned alot from that adventure.

PaDrano

[miss_lovestoned]

I recieved a letter from Paramount affering me the same, contract etc! Today they sent me out a second letter saying they don't do this for just anybody, it was signed " the director" or something. Did anybody else recieve a second letter?

[Lzi]

Neal K, on 14 July 2010 - 01:59 PM, said:

PaDrano, on 13 July 2010 - 08:31 PM, said:

I felt a big risk of having to pay back moneys though if the records did not do well and felt I needed to have a back up plan before putting my family at risk for a possible disaster.

No legitimate contract would have you pay back money if records do not sell. That's because legitimate publishers and record companies do not ask you for any money up front. The pay for the recordings and recoup their investment through sales. It's their risk, not yours.

Neal

In fact, record companies hold royalty money in reserve because, it is the only business in the world where product is sold to retailers with a clause which allows the store to return any unsold records. In effect you may sell (ship) a million copies (platinum RIAA numbers) and in theory have 1,000,000 copies returned as unsold!
Labels hold the reserves until the true sales numbers come in. In other words, no matter how many copies you've shipped to the stores, you're only getting paid on countable sales, and only after your account is recouped, AND the reseves come in.

You've accepted what amounts to a loan (at a crazy interest rate at that) when you cash the advance check, and this will be billed against your future royalties. No mechanical royalty monies will be paid until the full amount of your advance has been recouped. So, you pay for absolutely everything that is done for you, pressing the discs, the artwork, the promotion, etc... EVERYTHING gets charged against your account. The costs are not incurred by the record company. They lend you the money.

Publishing money is another animal, and has nothing to do with the record company unless of course they own part of your publishing which is a highly likely scenario. The difference is ASCAP/BMI or some PRO is collecting the monies payable to you due to airplay. You do not have to be recouped in order to be paid performance royalties. These monies come directly to you/your publisher.

This company does not look like anything I would advise anyone to get involved with. Of course they may be seen as a "legitimate" company on paper however, this appears to be a heartache waiting to happen. Keep your money. If a company is truly a legitimate label they would be offering you money to release your music, not charging you for the priveledge. They may say otherwise, whatever, save your money. These types of companies prey upon artists. If you want what is known in the industry as a "vanity" disc you'll be better off making your own. If you go with these guys, do not expect much to come of it. I am not trying to be mean, just trying to save you alot of headaches. You're much better off placing your music on iTunes available as digital downloads. The compilation record is a very old scheme. BEWARE.

[Neal K]

Lzi, on 27 July 2010 - 05:04 PM, said:

You've accepted what amounts to a loan (at a crazy interest rate at that) when you cash the advance check, and this will be billed against your future royalties. No mechanical royalty monies will be paid until the full amount of your advance has been recouped. So, you pay for absolutely everything that is done for you, pressing the discs, the artwork, the promotion, etc... EVERYTHING gets charged against your account. The costs are not incurred by the record company. They lend you the money.

It's understood that no payment is made while your account remains in the red. The question is, if the recording does not sell enough to recoup the investment, does the artist owe the outstanding balance? I don't think they do, hence my response to the poster who didn't want to put his family at financial risk. Am I wrong?

Neal

[Neal K]

miss_lovestoned, on 27 July 2010 - 04:50 PM, said:

I recieved a letter from Paramount affering me the same, contract etc! Today they sent me out a second letter saying they don't do this for just anybody, it was signed " the director" or something. Did anybody else recieve a second letter?

Everybody gets the same letter(s). It's supposed to appeal to your vanity.

Neal

[miss_lovestoned]

I thought as much.
Thanks

Neal K, on 28 July 2010 - 01:13 AM, said:

miss_lovestoned, on 27 July 2010 - 04:50 PM, said:

I recieved a letter from Paramount affering me the same, contract etc! Today they sent me out a second letter saying they don't do this for just anybody, it was signed " the director" or something. Did anybody else recieve a second letter?

Everybody gets the same letter(s). It's supposed to appeal to your vanity.

Neal