Muse's Muse Songwriting Message Board: Song Comp Discussion (2012 - ) - Muse's Muse Songwriting Message Board

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This is a forum where you can find all the contests that we run in the Muse. In the past these were run in different forums but now we are gathering them all together in one place to make them easier for you to find.

Each contest is run by the moderators from different forums, so you will find song contests from the Lyrics and forum moderators, lyric contests from the Lyrics forums moderators, and so on. The moderators will post the results and you can add your congratulations for the winners (or accept the congratulations of others).

Read the rules for each contest carefully, they differ for each contest. Don't forget you can judge contests as well as enter them.
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Song Comp Discussion (2012 - ) continuation thread

#1 User is offline   porcupine Icon

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 01:05 PM

**** Mod's note - this is a continuation of the 2011 thread - I started a new one because the other was getting too big - Nige Q ****


Here's just an idea for scoring the songs.

each "voter" scores a 6-10 for the song

JOE 10
MIKE 9
SUE 6
KEVIN 6
GARY 9

then adds a "check mark" for area of excellence. This is if there is a song that far above sticks out lyrically or musically...some songs are outstanding lyrically and should be recognized and vice versa. this also will break ties

after 15 people voted, it should look like this

lyric music
JOE 120 4 3
MIKE 116 5 5
SUE 99 2 6
KEVIN 98 3
GARY 94 1 1

So now, in my example you would have JOE as the winner (with the most points)
and an Hhnorable mention in lyrics SUE
and an honorable mention in music MIKE

Would love to hear everyones thoughts on this...


Porcupine
#1 song on Onstage.com's Holiday Playlist in Nov 2011 "Could This Be Christmas"
#5 song on Onstage.com's Open for Bon Jovi in May of 2010 "Turn It Down"
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#2 User is offline   daddio Icon

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 01:44 PM

View Postporcupine, on 20 April 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

Here's just an idea for scoring the songs.

each "voter" scores a 6-10 for the song

JOE 10
MIKE 9
SUE 6
KEVIN 6
GARY 9

then adds a "check mark" for area of excellence. This is if there is a song that far above sticks out lyrically or musically...some songs are outstanding lyrically and should be recognized and vice versa. this also will break ties

after 15 people voted, it should look like this

lyric music
JOE 120 4 3
MIKE 116 5 5
SUE 99 2 6
KEVIN 98 3
GARY 94 1 1

So now, in my example you would have JOE as the winner (with the most points)
and an Hhnorable mention in lyrics SUE
and an honorable mention in music MIKE

Would love to hear everyones thoughts on this...


Porcupine


Sounds too complicated to me and doesn't accomplish anything different. In the end, it doesn't matter. What's most important is that we all use the same method. I think Nige should just mandate a ranking system. As he pointed out to me in a PM, the top 10 songs on the Billboard Hot 100 are all good songs. But only one can be #1 (at least this week). Getting a one wouldn't be an insult then but just a way of saying, "I like this song but I like these other songs better." It seems to me that if two people score a list of songs and one uses ranking while the other uses scoring 6-10, a ten is still a ten. Both people's bottom choice would still be at the bottom. But there is an illusion of unfairness because one guy gave the bottom song a 1 and the other gave it a 6. And that's what we're really talking about, not the winner but the guys at the bottom. A scoring system from 6-10 might spare someone's feelings a little but it won't change the winner. I think the middle songs might shuffle a bit differently if we all used ranking but the top and bottom would probably stay the same. But ranking is really a more honest feedback, at least I think so. And many writers here claim they want that honest feedback.
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#3 User is offline   ScenesFromPalacio Icon

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 02:29 PM

Quote

As he pointed out to me in a PM, the top 10 songs on the Billboard Hot 100 are all good songs


I'm pretty sure i'd dispute that lol

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 02:58 PM

View Postporcupine, on 20 April 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:


Would love to hear everyones thoughts on this...


Porcupine



I would treasure this kind of feedback, and getting it via the comps is uniquely different than on the regular forum board. Pretty much, the people I see in the comps are the best writers on the board. Not always, but on the average yes. And the people who vote outside of these tend to be some of the more serious songwriters on the board. Again, not 100% true but overall that's my take away. And so hearing what their take is on each of the songs - what they think shines, together with having everything in one place, makes porc's idea very appealing.

I also wanted to mention that some months back I suggested this...it's germane to the current discussion.

Rick

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 03:16 PM

what the 6-10 thing somewhat eliminates is anyone who decides for personal reasons, that they don't like the person, style, or genre. just a bit. (this is a forum, many opinions taken many ways). then the worst you are is 4 behind someone else instead of 9

It also has come up several times that production may play a factor in the decision to give a higher rating, so people do look at it differently, they hear things differently, that why i think we should honor lyrics and music seperately as an honorable mention.

I personally dont look at production, although I'll be honest, I dont know enough about certain "styles" of music to tell if the lyric is fitting, although I know what I like. For me to decide it the lyric is great, just simply wouldnt be the best perosn to ask, so if i score someone a 1, what do I know?????? if I score a 6, it should be a little easier to come out in the wash.

I also like the fact that we recognize the individual strengths of the writer. While on song could be tremendous lyrically, it could suffer lyrically. This not only recognizes the writer, but allow to see where they can improve. Crit Forums do this as well.

These are only my opinions. I love the contest and Im sure it takes some time to organize it and in no way want to offend Nige for doing a superb job.

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#6 User is offline   ScenesFromPalacio Icon

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 04:17 PM

Quote

Would love to hear everyones thoughts on this...

Porcupine


I agree with Daddio that it sounds abit too complicated -tho i can see the (generous spirited ) reasons for wanting to do this Charlie..We're all free to make comments and give kudos to whatever we want in the thread after the contest anyways..

Quote

I personally dont look at production,


I think you've gotta be careful with assumptions like that..I think everyone is influenced by production aspects - whether they're consciously aware of it or not..
We've all got our preferences n our peeves..
Vibes n sounds n attitudes we resonate with -those we don't..
Like you -i'm pretty broad-minded tastewise- and always try to listen for the 'song' beneath it all - but of course there's sound/style preferences that creep thru and influence underneath that....
For me,one of the things is definitely with vocal styles..A really whiny modern 'cod-soulin' vocal or a kinda supa-smug ultra-drawlin' -or whiny cod-soulin'- country one (for instance) i find challenging f'sure - and might influence me negatively..



Nige..I'm personally very happy to go with the 1-10 scoring if its made mandatory for everyone..But will stick with the blander,more clumped scoring if its not..Just 'cos i don't want to be giving out 1s n 2s amongst a sea of average scoring..

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 06:19 PM

All this fuss over some people having their feelings hurt because of a low score. Last is last whether the average score is 1 or 6. If you don't want to get your feelings hurt don't enter, problem solved. I prefer the ranking scoring system because it forces voters to make a choice rather than rationalize their votes by giving the same score to several entrants. Admitedly, I do that but it's because you have to when there are a large number of entries. I suggest that the scorers only rank their top 5 entries with only the top 5 posted while the others go into a pool of missing the cut off like in golf. That should take care of the hurt feelings discussions afterwards.

#8 User is offline   Joan Icon

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 07:21 PM

View Postbernabby, on 20 April 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

All this fuss over some people having their feelings hurt because of a low score. Last is last whether the average score is 1 or 6. If you don't want to get your feelings hurt don't enter, problem solved. I prefer the ranking scoring system because it forces voters to make a choice rather than rationalize their votes by giving the same score to several entrants. Admitedly, I do that but it's because you have to when there are a large number of entries. I suggest that the scorers only rank their top 5 entries with only the top 5 posted while the others go into a pool of missing the cut off like in golf. That should take care of the hurt feelings discussions afterwards.


Bernabby, I'll never figure you out. You start off by telling people they shouldn't enter if they don't want their feelings hurt. Then you finish up with a truly insightful suggestion that would actually spare the feelings of everyone who didn't finish in the top five. Go figure.

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 08:08 PM

I guess I understand your point steve. I have done much more work as a producer where an artist came to me with a song and wanted it to sound_____________. I have a lot of homework that way. that, IMO allows me to see the song for what it "could be". If the lyrics and music dont match well, its a very difficult job to convince the writer that no matter what we do, it may not work. But there may be elements of the song that are outstanding.

the reason why i say this is all of us are great at some things and average at others, and even novice at some. Me personally, and this was my first entry, will have to get used to what happens after, like you said. Im sure there will be info there. But I do believe that there are some songs in the contest that were leaps and bounds the best either lyrically or musically and didnt get to eb in the top 3.

I would just like to see it recognized somehow.

Porcupine

As far as feeling hurt, Im fine with my ranking. I just seen some of the scores for others that were a 1,2 or 3 in in some ways out "valued" songs that got an 8 9 or 10.

I look to this board for people to help me with my weak spots and condition me to do the good things over and over. not sure how getting a 1 does that
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#10 User is offline   daddio Icon

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 09:13 PM

View PostScenesFromPalacio, on 20 April 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

Quote

As he pointed out to me in a PM, the top 10 songs on the Billboard Hot 100 are all good songs


I'm pretty sure i'd dispute that lol


Lol, Steve, I can't disagree with you. I don't listen to those songs but obviously someone does. My point was that they are ranked and there can only be one #1. It doesn't necessarily mean that #10 is that much worse a song, just that more people like the #1 song. They're all still making tons of money for somebody.
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"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." Hunter S. Thompson

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#11 User is offline   Ironknee Icon

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 09:38 PM

The way I see it.....As long as we are HONEST in our scoring...I think we should be able to "free-style" it. And for those who may not be honest....well, we should not let it ruin it for the rest of us. These contests are for fun.......if they weren't, I really believe we'd be seeing a much more deliberate scoring excersize. Let's leave it alone, and to all of our own descretion.

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 10:04 PM

View PostScenesFromPalacio, on 20 April 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

Nige..I'm personally very happy to go with the 1-10 scoring if its made mandatory for everyone..But will stick with the blander,more clumped scoring if its not..Just 'cos i don't want to be giving out 1s n 2s amongst a sea of average scoring..


Nige, I have to agree with Steve and the other folks who say we should only use ranks instead of scores if it's mandatory rather than optional. There is a lot to recommend ranking the songs - I find it challenges me as a listener much more than assigning scores does, which means I'm paying closer attention to all of the songs as I vote. But I'm afraid that the mixed scoring skews the results for all but those at the top, which means the contest results are less valuable as feedback. And I confess that, like Soddy, I felt very uncomfortable assigning a 1 to my least-favorite song when there is no consensus on what that number represents.

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#13 User is offline   Gordon Icon

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 10:35 PM

ha... okay, my understanding of it, was like Paddy said, and Nige thanked him... it was optional to withdraw...

... and likely specifically as Tom mapped out that if, let me just use Steve as an example 'cause he wins a lot... Steve has 4 songs up for the win, Jason has 2, and several people have one each... then maybe some "steve" fans split up votes over his 4... he sort of "beats" himself... kind of like if Nebraska has a great quarterback and running back both up for the Heisman in the same year... and they split votes... then that wide receiver from Florida wins it!!

yeah, that can happen...

there's probably a few ways to deal with it. having the artist have the chance to "drop" one or more leads to Tom (and i think me) saying... "ohhhhh, but that WAS my favorite!" and suddenly you can't vote for it... so if the vote is for the best "song" then maybe it isn't that any more (if it could be because some of my favorite Lyrics and Songs didn't win their month and then also were not eligible for my vote...)

in that case, i guess you vote for the best of what is left.

or you put them all up and figure people are still voting for the individual songs whether one or more artists have one or more horses in the race...

i suppose you could leave it open to every single song/lyric entered all year and give everyone a "form" to rate their top 5 to 10 say, with descending points on their list, and most points total wins... of course, you may be asking voters to look at an awful lot of entrants that they may not have been around for all year... and intimidate them right out of voting... or they'd only vote their top picks from the one or two or three months they were involved...

so... i don't know what is best... good and bad, pros and cons with any choice, nothing's perfect, nothing like this can or should be purely objective, i don't think... i think people should remember it is a "fun" contest and the important thing probably is to learn a bit what others are liking about what you do... what maybe they are a little bit not liking/getting... and then learning/changing/improving, etc., from that...

and this is especially true if someone like me has a significant contribution to choosing the winner and losers... i mean, yeah, i can choose based on what i like, but that is likely influenced greatly by my background and musical preferences... and that's fine - all the better to get more voters... but if i love heavy metal and someone is turning in "Rhianna" songs and i'm dissing them, even if they are great Rhianna songs... well, i may just not understand what makes good Rhianna songs... but a lot of other people do, and that's fine... so you either need lots and lots of voters to smooth out that sort of bias... or ... or... well, there's no other way really to smooth out that sort of bias, i think, and then it may end up often depending on whether there are a lot of folk fans, country fans, etc...

... there's still no award money or record deals associated with winning here are there?

:)

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 12:17 AM

I'm fine with the way things are scored for the most part. 1 - 10 repeats allowed. The two different methods was confusing so as long as that is avoided. As for getting ones I'm always confused when I enter a contest and get like 8's, 9's and 10's, then there's a 1 in there. Hey fine someone didn't like it but its just so hard to reconcile what that means next to such high positive marks. At least I know it touched someone and that's all I could ask for.

Now this last contest there were 1's and 4's and it was fairly apparent that it wasn't a good song. I think the ranking worked like it is supposed to there even with the mixed voting. All I think we ask is that voters carefully consider those lower scores. You might not like the style but at least appreciate the effort that someone put in and maybe how close to what they were what they were going for and if it was off the mark then so be it.

My 2.7 cents worth...

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 12:39 AM

i hope to get to giving my full reply with a comment about what i like about each song this weekend (i hope tomorrow with a six pack of Bell's Oberon)...

... but, Scotto... oooohhh... i don't think Dragon Fly was bad at all... i was very close to voting it first overall... i thought it was unique and interesting and captivating...

yeah, i will say that i told Nigel i was uncomfortable scoring everyone 1-10 ranking (obviously with some ties 'cuz there were like 14 entries) because i'm not really a musician and i'd be afraid i might then put someone at 1 mostly because it isn't really my 'genre' and then i'd instantly punish someone 9 points vs. my top score simply because i don't 'care for' that kind of music...

Now of course, others may well vote completely opposite... but i feel a little more comfortable in putting up a 3-4 point spread top to bottom and if some of you musicians can identify better some instrumental technicalities and such that give a larger spread then that's fine... i just sort of feel like my vote should be more of a "half vote"...

now, i reserve the right if someone posts something that is just horrible crap, maybe i vote them very low... but i haven't heard that yet...

as i told Nigel, maybe i just need to "get my feet wet"... i'll keep my spread narrow... maybe widen it as i learn more, feel more comfortable, and see there are lots of voters to compensate if i'm unfairly putting someone too low just because i don't like that style...

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 07:34 AM

IMHO there is far too much of this "the best song won" attitude - how PC is that ?

Take this month for instance - The Thinman finished penultimate, with a boatload of 1's, with a song that quite obviously was a classic.

I assume that if I get anything less than a 5 they just haven't listened - it's the only way it stacks up ?

And as for that "ScenesFromKinPalacio" - we'll see how he gets on next month ? - ha !

(Didn't I say that once before ? Now what did I come into this room for ? Forgotten again, oh well ?)

Oh no - that's what it was -

you should score the comps Daddio's way - it's the only way to be sure (other than blasting off and nuking the whole area from space)

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 09:07 AM

My personal opinion for what it's worth .. As hard as it is to hand out the bottom #'s the ranking system is the best way to go.. I don't think mixing 2 systems is a good thing .. I think it should be as simple as putting them in order from best to last..

Im a lefty and see things a little different than most my system would be 1 is the highest ranking and the song with the Lowest score is the winner .. Don't you folks know ? Music and Golf go hand in hand !
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Posted 22 April 2012 - 02:50 AM

View PostJoan, on 20 April 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

View Postbernabby, on 20 April 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

All this fuss over some people having their feelings hurt because of a low score. Last is last whether the average score is 1 or 6. If you don't want to get your feelings hurt don't enter, problem solved. I prefer the ranking scoring system because it forces voters to make a choice rather than rationalize their votes by giving the same score to several entrants. Admitedly, I do that but it's because you have to when there are a large number of entries. I suggest that the scorers only rank their top 5 entries with only the top 5 posted while the others go into a pool of missing the cut off like in golf. That should take care of the hurt feelings discussions afterwards.


Bernabby, I'll never figure you out. You start off by telling people they shouldn't enter if they don't want their feelings hurt. Then you finish up with a truly insightful suggestion that would actually spare the feelings of everyone who didn't finish in the top five. Go figure.

I continue to amaze myself with these frequent releases of sagism from the plethora and wealth of knowledge that comprise my brain cells. Want another? Well, I don't have one just yet. As you may or may not know, I am one who has, in the past, given generously in scores of 1 and 2. I have, because of post vote rants, been intimidated to now raise my minimum to 3. It makes no sense to have a 1 to 10 scale if, people like me, are shamed into artificially raising our minimum scores just to assauge some egos. If we really like a song we are expected to give it a high score yet if we really don't like one we are expected to lie. I can see why people may not vote in these contests for fear of backlash, not only from the low scorer but from "friendly" fellow entrants criticizing the low score. People spend personal time reading/listening to these entries and vote accordingly. Why do they need to read disparaging remarks about why their votes are awful, disrespectful, out of line etc. If no one should get a 1 what's the purpose of using 1 to 10? If you use this scale somebody's feeling will always be hurt. Go to the ranking system if the intent is to avoid hurt feelings. This would be a much truer measure because it would eliminate tie scores and relieve us of the burden to tell everyone how we couldn't separate them so tie scores for second were given to 5 entries and the other 8 were tied for 3rd. That's a farce. End of rant and and end of my artificial scoring if we continue with a 1 to 10 scale.

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 07:02 AM

After reading all these post and thinking about, it really doesnt matter the scoring. But, I have to say...If you get a 1 or a few of them, wouldn't you like to know what you could do better? So recognizing the "best" in lyrics and recognizing the best in "music" helps that. I still would like to see voting on those aspects besides just the best song.

Personally I didnt get a 1, but notice a few songs that did and in my mind, cant see (after listening) why it would be a one. I do understand that we all have different opinions....but a one means it has no value. THAT i disagree with.
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see more of my music at charlieeschbach.com

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 07:17 AM

View Postporcupine, on 22 April 2012 - 08:02 AM, said:

After reading all these post and thinking about, it really doesnt matter the scoring. But, I have to say...If you get a 1 or a few of them, wouldn't you like to know what you could do better? So recognizing the "best" in lyrics and recognizing the best in "music" helps that. I still would like to see voting on those aspects besides just the best song.

Personally I didnt get a 1, but notice a few songs that did and in my mind, cant see (after listening) why it would be a one. I do understand that we all have different opinions....but a one means it has no value. THAT i disagree with.
porcupine

That's not necessarily true. A one under the ranking system means I like this song but I like these better. Using a ranking system forces voters to truly make choices instead of, as Bernabby pointed out, saying I had these 7 songs tied for third.
In any event, any score is just the voter's opinion. While I would never give a one under the old scoring system, it doesn't mean a song has no value, it means that voter didn't care for it for whatever reason.
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#21 User is offline   porcupine Icon

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 09:04 AM

daddio:

when you give a song a 1 is it because it isnt a good song or is it ranked AGAINST the others in the pack?

That would make a difference

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 11:08 AM

I think it all depends on the ranking system we are using. Ranking everything 1 - 10 with no repeats allowed or generic 1 - 10 based on a feeling of the song with repeats allowed. That being said I don't care which is used as long as it is consistent and everyone uses the same. We're not winning anything and are just looking to see what our peers think about what we've created against each others creations. It's a worthwhile excersize for sure.

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 02:52 PM

I think that's whats most important. To find out what we are doing well and what we need improvement on.

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 04:34 PM

View Postporcupine, on 22 April 2012 - 10:04 AM, said:

daddio:

when you give a song a 1 is it because it isnt a good song or is it ranked AGAINST the others in the pack?

That would make a difference

Porcupine

This is the first time I've used the ranking system. Until now, I've never given a song a 1. I don't think that's appropriate under the old scoring system although I've seen it done. In this comp, I used the ranking system which meant the song I gave a 1 was ranked against the pack. The ranking system requires, as I understand it, that all the songs be ranked from top to bottom. Since there were more than 10 songs, a couple of songs were tied in rank this time. It doesn't mean that the song that recieved a 1 was a bad song, to the contrary, I thought this was a very strong group. It just meant that when I ranked the songs, one had to on top and one had to be on bottom.
Lately I'm feeling my inner dog.

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 04:54 PM

It's all for fun as it should be but just like our music there is always room for improvement...
If they were ranked best to last 1 thru 9 or 1 thru 19 just like the charts and also submit your choices in order to the administrator, it would relatively easy to tally the score for them.. 1 is good ! lowest score wins..
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Posted 22 April 2012 - 06:00 PM

Ok..gonna throw in my half cents worth of opinion. :rolleyes: :P

I feel if no one is willing to always score it using some kind of guideline as to what each score represents, (thus helping the songwriter to know what their individual score means) then it needs to be a rule to vote ONE way! Voting 2 ways is confusing, because if I had entered, seeing a 1 would not tell me, was I at the bottom of the pack of these songs, OR was it a 1 because it sucks and would suck beside any songs? I would not know because I would not be sure which way the number 1 person had voted. This is upsetting some to see 1's because they may feel their song sucks when actually it may have been done with ranking and not scoring.

I put many songs in a similiar score, because I didn't feel their song was worthy of less than a 6, because it was good. It has always been the system I am used to doing, where a number means something. If that is to not be used, take it (the guideline) off the rules. You know the one, that says what 1-10 means..

It would help in my opinion to have the .5's available. It would weed it out more, but it seems no one wants to do this. If we agree to have it all scoring, then 1-10 with .5 can be used too. for instance, if song 3 is a tiny bit better than song 6, give it an extra half point. 6.5 ...but I am repeating myself. so I won't continue. :blink:


BUT if everyone wants a ranking system, then let's all decide to do it that way.

I know the moderators say, we can't enforce people to vote a certain way...why not?

You enforce the rule of only one 9 and one 10. You enforce the rule to have the scores in by a certain day, you enforce the rule that you must vote to be a contestant... Do it the same, have it clear at the end of every contest how the ranking works...if there are 18 songs, they are to vote 1-18. with 1 as their fav. or vise versa, how ever the mod. wants to do it and IF someone sends in a score the old way, without the ranking, then warn them to score over again. Make it clear that if you do not score in the new ranking way, your score will not count. That would especially matter for ones competing to do it "right".

Maybe even have scorecard of sorts where it has the numbers 1- ever how many songs there are for that month and beside each number a song title must be placed. How hard would that be to enforce? I am just frustrated with the "well, we can vote whichever way we want attitude" because it has led to confusion... and when ranking instead of scoring, then it can be a burden to you if you are a contestant...and when some entries are scoring others one way, and some the other, it seems to not be as fair.

Can we not make a decision to do it one way and leave it at that?


I feel for the moderators, you will not make everyone happy. I do wish if scoring continues, there could be .5 added to make it easier to split hairs..but if ranking is chosen as the voting method, I am all for it, I just wish it could be one way for all contests.

NO the contests are not that important, as many seem to want to point out, but we have them, so lets make it as easy and as fair as we can, if we continue to do it.

I think knowing how our songs and or lyrics rate, helps us as writers, to see what our peers feel of our work, and to also try to improve. I find it valuable, as some of the peers on this contest thread don't come around the crit. boards as often.


I hope it all gets worked out. :)



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Posted 22 April 2012 - 06:23 PM

View Postkimberlyinnc, on 22 April 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

Ok..gonna throw in my half cents worth of opinion. :rolleyes: :P

BUT if everyone wants a ranking system, then let's all decide to do it that way.

I know the moderators say, we can't enforce people to vote a certain way...why not?

You enforce the rule of only one 9 and one 10. You enforce the rule to have the scores in by a certain day, you enforce the rule that you must vote to be a contestant... Do it the same, have it clear at the end of every contest how the ranking works...if there are 18 songs, they are to vote 1-18. with 1 as their fav. or vise versa, how ever the mod. wants to do it and IF someone sends in a score the old way, without the ranking, then warn them to score over again. Make it clear that if you do not score in the new ranking way, your score will not count. That would especially matter for ones competing to do it "right".

Can we not make a decision to do it one way and leave it at that?

Kimberly :)

I agree. Moderators can't make everyone happy but it's only fair to have everyone vote the same way. This can be enforced and should be.
Lately I'm feeling my inner dog.

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"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." Hunter S. Thompson

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 08:06 PM

For the record....I like to be able to score the song for it's own merits, on a slide of my own choosing......sometimes I do score songs as even......not to say that everyone else is going to score exactly like me......in the end, all the subtleties of our own distinct tastes will ferret out a ranking. Ranking songs in order is just too "geometric" for me.
I prefer using a more fluid, or abstract approach to my scoring!

Leave the scoring as is......If we want to know why we got a 1 or a 2, we can post it on the songs feedback thread.
From experience, when I post my lyrics on the lyric's feedback after a contest, there is no shortage of opinions as to why my song didn't work / appeal to them.....and very helpful to me, I will add!!!

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 01:42 AM

Having made a cursory review of the congratulatory comments and the closeness in this month's songs I believe a ranking system may have yielded a different result in the order of finish.
Kim: I would have to disagree with your assertion about these contests not being important. If anything, you get the equivalent of a dozen honest reviews.

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 04:48 AM

Has anyone noted just how long this debate has been going on for?

Come on guys, do we really need to get so precious about what started off (all those years ago, for those how might not have been around to remember) as a relatively light-hearted bit of competition?

Why don't we all take a moment to take a deep and gentle breath (literally) and reflect on what this site is about?

Is it about creative mentoring, mutual support, collaboration and co-operation?

Or is it about competition and petty bickering over relative trivia?

I think competitions (as in games) can be fun, and even great learning experiences. But it's when we start taking them too seriously that they cease to be fun, or educational.

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 06:16 AM

View PostSimple Simon, on 23 April 2012 - 05:48 AM, said:

Has anyone noted just how long this debate has been going on for?

Come on guys, do we really need to get so precious about what started off (all those years ago, for those how might not have been around to remember) as a relatively light-hearted bit of competition?

Why don't we all take a moment to take a deep and gentle breath (literally) and reflect on what this site is about?

Is it about creative mentoring, mutual support, collaboration and co-operation?

Or is it about competition and petty bickering over relative trivia?

I think competitions (as in games) can be fun, and even great learning experiences. But it's when we start taking them too seriously that they cease to be fun, or educational.

ah but isn't the real fun in all the bickering? :)
Lately I'm feeling my inner dog.

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable"

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." Hunter S. Thompson

"The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over."
Hunter S. Thompson


"I pay no attention whatever to anybody's praise or blame. I simply follow my own feelings."
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#32 User is offline   NigeQ Icon

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 06:39 AM

View Postkimberlyinnc, on 23 April 2012 - 12:00 AM, said:

if I had entered, seeing a 1 would not tell me, was I at the bottom of the pack of these songs, OR was it a 1 because it sucks and would suck beside any songs? I would not know because I would not be sure which way the number 1 person had voted. This is upsetting some to see 1's because they may feel their song sucks when actually it may have been done with ranking and not scoring.

Ok, I've addressed this bit - if you go back to the April scores you will see that I have now prefixed all scores that were given as part of the ranking system with 'r'. So if a song receives an 'r1' that means it received that as part of the ranking system, the same goes for an 'r10'. The r1 doesn't mean it's a poor song and likewise an r10 doesn't mean it's a great song, just all within the context of the competition.

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:41 AM

Bernabby said

Quote

Having made a cursory review of the congratulatory comments and the closeness in this month's songs I believe a ranking system may have yielded a different result in the order of finish.
Kim: I would have to disagree with your assertion about these contests not being important. If anything, you get the equivalent of a dozen honest reviews.


Bernabby, I was just saying I understand why some feel it is not important, and in the grand scheme of things as in life, or paying us extra for the effort it is not that important but I find them valuable and I enjoy entering them. :)


I also added this in the same comment

Quote

I think knowing how our songs and or lyrics rate, helps us as writers, to see what our peers feel of our work, and to also try to improve. I find it valuable, as some of the peers on this contest thread don't come around the crit. boards as often.


I think this shows I find the contests to be something valuable in its own ways.

I was entertaining the comments made by others about the contests not really mattering. :)

And Simon------Respectfully, I have to respond to your comments...

I do not feel we are getting precious about this. :) I do know it gets old seeing the same old discussion almost monthly..

I know I am not angry about it or even irritated. I just feel if there is a contest, I wish, and so do others, that it would be not as confusing for those taking an hour or more to listen to and score the songs to have one way and only one way of scoring and those entering to know what their scores represent. :)

We know it is a light hearted fun contest :) and in the grand scheme of things, it is not that important, but is it not obvious it is something that has been brought up over and over again, that people feel some things needs changing?
Is that too much to ask for to consider change if the majority wants it or will we be labeled as being silly if we voice our concerns in a contest we enter?

If the moderators would rather this not be discussed, then why have a forum for it? :lol: No disrespect meant. :)

peace... :P
Kim
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#34 User is offline   kimberlyinnc Icon

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:58 AM

View PostNigeQ, on 23 April 2012 - 07:39 AM, said:

View Postkimberlyinnc, on 23 April 2012 - 12:00 AM, said:

if I had entered, seeing a 1 would not tell me, was I at the bottom of the pack of these songs, OR was it a 1 because it sucks and would suck beside any songs? I would not know because I would not be sure which way the number 1 person had voted. This is upsetting some to see 1's because they may feel their song sucks when actually it may have been done with ranking and not scoring.

Ok, I've addressed this bit - if you go back to the April scores you will see that I have now prefixed all scores that were given as part of the ranking system with 'r'. So if a song receives an 'r1' that means it received that as part of the ranking system, the same goes for an 'r10'. The r1 doesn't mean it's a poor song and likewise an r10 doesn't mean it's a great song, just all within the context of the competition.




I think this may be helpful Nigel, for those who see their score and wonder how it was scored. :)

ps... Though I feel that could add a lot more work on your part. :)
Kimberly
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Posted 23 April 2012 - 01:08 PM

View PostSimple Simon, on 23 April 2012 - 02:48 AM, said:

Has anyone noted just how long this debate has been going on for?

Come on guys, do we really need to get so precious about what started off (all those years ago, for those how might not have been around to remember) as a relatively light-hearted bit of competition?

Why don't we all take a moment to take a deep and gentle breath (literally) and reflect on what this site is about?

Is it about creative mentoring, mutual support, collaboration and co-operation?

Quote

On the surface, perhaps.

Or is it about competition and petty bickering over relative trivia? Yes.

Quote



I think competitions (as in games) can be fun, and even great learning experiences. But it's when we start taking them too seriously that they cease to be fun, or educational.

That's the nature of competition. If you don't take it seriously why bother to compete? It's like t-ball baseball games nowadays where they don't keep score. Yeah, right. The parents are very much keeping score. There will always be Monday morning quarterbacking in every level of competition. This one should be no different. I'm in it to compete and to bicker. I see nothing wrong with either.

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 01:42 PM

View Postkimberlyinnc, on 24 April 2012 - 05:41 AM, said:

I know I am not angry about it or even irritated. I just feel if there is a contest, I wish, and so do others, that it would be not as confusing for those taking an hour or more to listen to and score the songs to have one way and only one way of scoring and those entering to know what their scores represent. :)

We know it is a light hearted fun contest :) and in the grand scheme of things, it is not that important, but is it not obvious it is something that has been brought up over and over again, that people feel some things needs changing?

Fair enough. I guess that what is important is whatever we choose to decide is important. :)

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 01:43 PM

View Postbernabby, on 24 April 2012 - 07:08 AM, said:

The parents are very much keeping score.

Telling.

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 02:30 PM

View PostSimple Simon, on 23 April 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

View Postbernabby, on 24 April 2012 - 07:08 AM, said:

The parents are very much keeping score.

Telling.

Yes..Very!

Best comment I've read.....makes this squabble worth participating! :P
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Posted 23 April 2012 - 04:07 PM

View PostSimple Simon, on 23 April 2012 - 05:48 AM, said:

Has anyone noted just how long this debate has been going on for?

Come on guys, do we really need to get so precious about what started off (all those years ago, for those how might not have been around to remember) as a relatively light-hearted bit of competition?

Why don't we all take a moment to take a deep and gentle breath (literally) and reflect on what this site is about?

Is it about creative mentoring, mutual support, collaboration and co-operation?

Or is it about competition and petty bickering over relative trivia?

I think competitions (as in games) can be fun, and even great learning experiences. But it's when we start taking them too seriously that they cease to be fun, or educational.


I grew up a big Irish-American family.

Believe me, this is not bickering. :lol:

For the sake of those who think the scoring should be one way or the other, or maybe another way altogether, Nige could look into that and I'm sure he is.

Then again, if it's left up to the voter as to which way he/she feels more comfortable scoring, I'm okay with that too. Either way, good songs always seem to be acknowledged in the results, however it's done.
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Posted 23 April 2012 - 10:53 PM

View Postjonie, on 23 April 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

View PostSimple Simon, on 23 April 2012 - 05:48 AM, said:

Has anyone noted just how long this debate has been going on for?

Come on guys, do we really need to get so precious about what started off (all those years ago, for those how might not have been around to remember) as a relatively light-hearted bit of competition?

Why don't we all take a moment to take a deep and gentle breath (literally) and reflect on what this site is about?

Is it about creative mentoring, mutual support, collaboration and co-operation?

Or is it about competition and petty bickering over relative trivia?

I think competitions (as in games) can be fun, and even great learning experiences. But it's when we start taking them too seriously that they cease to be fun, or educational.


I grew up a big Irish-American family.

Believe me, this is not bickering. :lol:

For the sake of those who think the scoring should be one way or the other, or maybe another way altogether, Nige could look into that and I'm sure he is.

Then again, if it's left up to the voter as to which way he/she feels more comfortable scoring, I'm okay with that too. Either way, good songs always seem to be acknowledged in the results, however it's done.

I don't think the bickering is so much about good songs getting the kudos it's more about how best to assauge the feelings of those with the low scores. It's also about having a consistent form of scoring. I think people are resisting ranking or taking a neutral position because they don't want to make difficult decisions. It's much harder to say I had you tied for second but ranked you 8th.

#41 User is offline   Simple Simon Icon

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 03:07 AM

Well, I would be more interested in a discussion as to what factors about the songs themselves influence people's votes. Or, to look at it more as a learning exercise, what factors should entrants consider when writing their songs if they are keen on doing well in such a competition?

My votes are generally and very broadly influenced (although not exclusively) by the following factors:

The Intro: is it too short/too long/ too boring. Does it grab my attention? Does it set the scene for the theme of the songs?

Melody/chord structure: Is it interesting? Is there enough differentiation between the verses and the choruses? Will I remember any aspect of it in my head a minute or so after it's finished? D

Lyrics: Well. I'm not really a lyrics listener, but I'll always vote for wordplay or ideas that capture my imagination, but only of they fit well to the music. And this brings me to...

Prosody: Probably one of the most important aspects to me. The words, the phrasings, the rhythm, the melody, the pace, the harmonies (and I know I'm stretching the dictionary definition of prosody here) must all work together.

And last, and probably least in most cases...

Arrangement: I want to hear how the song and the singer are supported and enhanced by the choice of instrumentation.

Of course, there are probably any number of factors that I haven't thought of, but those are the kinds of things that come to my conscious mind right now.

How about you?

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 06:55 AM

I'm Probably repeating something already said.. One element I think the judging should include is the the songs be rated against each other not someones abstract conclusion of what is a good song, and that none of he songs deserve a 10. It is a contest between the entered songs of which generally speaking, one is always the best and one is always the worst..

Our nature as humans is to measure everything and set it to some sort of scale for grading , weighing , measuring etc etc ..

Either system works for me, although I think the ranking system will yield the most accurate results . Two systems combined only clouds the waters...
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#43 User is offline   NigeQ Icon

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 10:53 AM

OK - let's choose the scoring system for the June Open Format Comp. Get your ideas down then I can run a poll.

For those of you who don't like the ranking system, should I ban it? and if so how would I enforce that ban? That's just something to think about.

Here are some options:

1. Enforced ranking system (1 to 10)
All voters should rank the songs from 1 to 10 - no duplicates unless there are more than 10 songs.

2. Keep the same (1 to 10)
This will be the same as it's been for the last 2 or 3 years. No scoring guidelines and use of the ranking system is optional.

3. Use (1 to 10) but with guidance notes e.g. 1=Poor and 10=Mega hit
This will be how it was 4 or 5 years ago and similar to how the lyric comp is now (but without those pesky half marks ;) )

4. Something else
If you choose this option please state your idea in the thread.


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Posted 24 April 2012 - 12:34 PM

View PostNigeQ, on 24 April 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

Here are some options:

1.All voters should rank the songs from 1 to 10 - no duplicates unless there are more than 10 songs.

3. Use (1 to 10) but with guidance notes e.g. 1=Poor and 10=Mega hit
This will be how it was 4 or 5 years ago and similar to how the lyric comp is now (but without those pesky half marks ;) )

4. Something else
If you choose this option please state your idea in the thread.[/color]



Nige,

I am quite happy with just entering a contest. I love the crits that others give me and the great majority of the time have been very helpful on almost every song. I had that luxury because I posted the songs in the crit section. I didnt enter a contest till much later, thinking that was the best way to go about it. I love the fact that the comments can be helpful and direct and sometimes just an "atta-boy" to make you feel good.

With that being said, I dont think the contest does that. It certainly doesnt tell the person that scored poorly why they got the score they did. If I would design it, I would make the scoring 1 through (however many entries). with one of two exceptions.

1) the person who scored the song less than 3, needs to explain what would need to be improved (this can also be done by the song entering the crit section, so not as important as #2)

2) besides the "ovaerall' score" add one for MUSIC and one for LYRICS with just a check or "x" for needs work. this clearly defines where the improvement may be needed.

OVERALL MUSIC LYRICS
JOHN 63
MARGO 45
FRED 40 2x
BILL 20 6x 3x

IF these ideas are too much work, I understand. I certainly dont want to change anything just because me, like i said i love what we have here. just my opinion.
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Posted 24 April 2012 - 04:29 PM

In many ways I prefer the old system. I know that people could do pure ranking, but I don't think many/any did. The good thing was that the voter received the average of the scores they handed out, which went some way to "keeping it honest".

With a pure ranking system, that can't work.

However, ranking could work, with two additions.

First, if there are fewer than ten entries, you rank down to the number of entries. If there are 10, it's 1-10. If there are more than 10, the only duplicate scores have to be marked as joint last. You don't "rank" your own entry - it just gets no score from the entrant. For collabs, only the poster enters scores (not the other collaborators).

Second, take away anonymity. Put a name against every score set.

That's my suggestion, anyway. I don't like it, but - if we go with ranking - I don't see how else it can work.
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Posted 24 April 2012 - 04:39 PM

View PostAlistair S, on 24 April 2012 - 05:29 PM, said:

In many ways I prefer the old system. I know that people could do pure ranking, but I don't think many/any did. The good thing was that the voter received the average of the scores they handed out, which went some way to "keeping it honest".

With a pure ranking system, that can't work.

However, ranking could work, with two additions.

First, if there are fewer than ten entries, you rank down to the number of entries. If there are 10, it's 1-10. If there are more than 10, the only duplicate scores have to be marked as joint last. You don't "rank" your own entry - it just gets no score from the entrant. For collabs, only the poster enters scores (not the other collaborators).

Second, take away anonymity. Put a name against every score set.

That's my suggestion, anyway.


Why not if there are more than 10 just rank 1 thru whatever ? 1-13 for example.. 1 being top of the pile low score wins.. Losing anonymity would be a plus if it didn't discourage voting.. It would be game on !

Im old and one of the few luxuries of being old is you get to repeat yourself alot and most folks just put up with it..
I have been fortunate enough to get a great bite of the Apple of Life. One thing I know for sure. Watch out for the Worms!

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 04:55 PM

View PostAlistair S, on 24 April 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

In many ways I prefer the old system. I know that people could do pure ranking, but I don't think many/any did. The good thing was that the voter received the average of the scores they handed out, which went some way to "keeping it honest".

With a pure ranking system, that can't work. How so? I think ranking is a more reliable indicator of how the song fared from the perspective of listeners. Some kind of artificial average score seems meaningless.
However, ranking could work, with two additions.

First, if there are fewer than ten entries, you rank down to the number of entries. If there are 10, it's 1-10. If there are more than 10, the only duplicate scores have to be marked as joint last. You don't "rank" your own entry - it just gets no score from the entrant. For collabs, only the poster enters scores (not the other collaborators). Why wouldn't the other collaborators get a vote if they can't rank their own entry? I would just demand that they be on the honor system and not collaborate on the voting. Other than that, I think your suggestions make a lot of sense.
Second, take away anonymity. Put a name against every score set. Yes.

That's my suggestion, anyway. I don't like it, but - if we go with ranking - I don't see how else it can work.

I like it, I vote for ranking.

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 05:00 PM

1-13 works fine. I just didn't think of the simple solution!

Bernabby, the averaging is for your own score. In the current system, it's a (fallible) way of ensuring that you don't score everyone low to make your own entry do better. It wouldn't work in a ranking system, for obvious reasons.

However, in a ranking system, you could score the best song last (for example). That is why I suggest removing anonymity - if we have to go for ranking.

P.S. On another matter, I think the contest is only designed to give raw feedback in the form of a score. Any detail is what the crits fora are for.
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"In my opinion this is a bunch of filth and garbage and we need far less this type of lyrics gettin back in the ears of our children." - from a critique received

"When I was 5 years old, my mum always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wante to be when I grew up. I wrote down, "Happy". The told me I didn't understand the assignment and I told them they didn't understand life." John Lennon.

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 05:01 PM

View Postporcupine, on 24 April 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

View PostNigeQ, on 24 April 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

Here are some options:

1.All voters should rank the songs from 1 to 10 - no duplicates unless there are more than 10 songs.

3. Use (1 to 10) but with guidance notes e.g. 1=Poor and 10=Mega hit
This will be how it was 4 or 5 years ago and similar to how the lyric comp is now (but without those pesky half marks ;) )

4. Something else
If you choose this option please state your idea in the thread.[/color]



Nige,

I am quite happy with just entering a contest. I love the crits that others give me and the great majority of the time have been very helpful on almost every song. I had that luxury because I posted the songs in the crit section. I didnt enter a contest till much later, thinking that was the best way to go about it. I love the fact that the comments can be helpful and direct and sometimes just an "atta-boy" to make you feel good.

With that being said, I dont think the contest does that. It certainly doesnt tell the person that scored poorly why they got the score they did. If I would design it, I would make the scoring 1 through (however many entries). with one of two exceptions.

1) the person who scored the song less than 3, needs to explain what would need to be improved (this can also be done by the song entering the crit section, so not as important as #2)

2) besides the "ovaerall' score" add one for MUSIC and one for LYRICS with just a check or "x" for needs work. this clearly defines where the improvement may be needed.

OVERALL MUSIC LYRICS
JOHN 63
MARGO 45
FRED 40 2x
BILL 20 6x 3x

IF these ideas are too much work, I understand. I certainly dont want to change anything just because me, like i said i love what we have here. just my opinion.

Way too complex for my brain. Let's keep it simple. First choice, second choice, third etc. Just because someone is ranked 10th out of 10th doesn't mean it's a poor song. It only means the ranker liked the others just a little better.

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 05:04 PM

View PostNigeQ, on 24 April 2012 - 08:53 AM, said:

OK - let's choose the scoring system for the June Open Format Comp. Get your ideas down then I can run a poll.

For those of you who don't like the ranking system, should I ban it? and if so how would I enforce that ban? That's just something to think about.

Here are some options:

1. Enforced ranking system (1 to 10)
All voters should rank the songs from 1 to 10 - no duplicates unless there are more than 10 songs.

2. Keep the same (1 to 10)
This will be the same as it's been for the last 2 or 3 years. No scoring guidelines and use of the ranking system is optional.

3. Use (1 to 10) but with guidance notes e.g. 1=Poor and 10=Mega hit
This will be how it was 4 or 5 years ago and similar to how the lyric comp is now (but without those pesky half marks ;) )

4. Something else
If you choose this option please state your idea in the thread.

I vote for option #1.

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