Muse's Muse Songwriting Message Board: Song Comp Discussion (2011 - 2012) - Muse's Muse Songwriting Message Board

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This is a forum where you can find all the contests that we run in the Muse. In the past these were run in different forums but now we are gathering them all together in one place to make them easier for you to find.

Each contest is run by the moderators from different forums, so you will find song contests from the Lyrics and forum moderators, lyric contests from the Lyrics forums moderators, and so on. The moderators will post the results and you can add your congratulations for the winners (or accept the congratulations of others).

Read the rules for each contest carefully, they differ for each contest. Don't forget you can judge contests as well as enter them.
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Song Comp Discussion (2011 - 2012) format, scoring 'n' stuff

#51 User is offline   FunkDaddy Icon

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 05:42 PM

kim I think you might be relying a bit too heavily on the descriptions of the scores. You know 10 is high, 1 is low, I'd say use whatever criteria you choose. For some their decision is based solely on the songwriting, for others it's songwriting and performance, some throw production into the mix. Using the descriptions might not fit into how you want to score the songs especially since it's not fair to others who might score differently and their score of a 3 is due mostly to poor performance and production, while your 3 is based solely on the song.

And I've sufficiently confused myself with this post.
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#52 User is offline   Len Icon

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 06:17 PM

Nothing confusing Funk, it's a good point. Even with a scale, we still have to interpret it. Perhaps it should be as Nige says , 1- Poor, 10 - Excellent.
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#53 User is offline   Alistair S Icon

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 06:20 PM

Just to be clear,

* I have never quoted those guidelines that I remember. I actually dislike them and won't use them.

* I never said I won't score if they are enforced, just that I won't use them. Nobody could ever know if I did or not, apart from me, anyway.

* When I said they are no longer in use, I was talking about the song contests (the subject matter of this thread), not the lyric contests (though I don't use them there either).

* Salley, I'm not bringing up a new bag of worms (I hope! :)), I was simply pointing out potential confusion if we use a ranking system that can rank people equally.

* I agree that none of this is likely to make even the slightest bit of difference. I really have no dog in the race.
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#54 User is offline   Salley Gardens Icon

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 06:30 PM

Kim, I wholeheartedly agree with you about scoring the songs on their own merits, and not in comparison to the other songs. That's why I don't like what people are calling "ranking". To rank the songs against each other can mean a perfectly awful song could rank a 13 out of 13! (assuming the other 12 are even worse!)

The Lyric score descriptions are unfamiliar to me, since I don't score in the Lyric comps. If something like that would be used for the song comps, I think we'd have to come up with new descriptions. Lyrics Only is completely different than a Complete Song. As I think about it, I think the *only* added description, besides 10-Excellent/1-Poor, would be a definition of "Average".

Regarding half marks, if put to a vote, I would vote against. I, too, have the same difficulty in scoring as you describe, and half marks wouldn't remove it for me. I'd instead be thinking, "Well, this one at 7.5 is really better than *that* one at 7.5, but not as as good as the one at 8...", and I'd be wishing for quarter marks... "Yeah, 7.75 should do it! This time..."

I also agree with you that this is worth time to review, and am glad Jason started a thread devoted to it. (I *hate* it when this discussion takes place in the contest thread itself!) I think the contest serves an additional purpose besides "fun". They are great motivators. Some of us need a deadline. People who can't keep it in perspective will remain that way until they mature. Changing the rules for *them* doesn't make them mature faster. But it's *not* silly for people who are earnest about giving our time attention, in whatever capacity that might be.

#55 User is offline   Salley Gardens Icon

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 06:36 PM

View PostAlistair S, on 19 December 2010 - 04:20 PM, said:

* Salley, I'm not bringing up a new bag of worms (I hope! :)), I was simply pointing out potential confusion if we use a ranking system that can rank people equally.

...and did so *most* adequately! ;)

#56 User is offline   kimberlyinnc Icon

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 07:23 PM

Whatever is done is not perfect, or will ever be perfect. :rolleyes:

I do know we have lots of new entree's and voters, such as Jason, bringing up the questions.

This is why I had wondered if an idea for, not set in stone, but a basic guideline as to what a number could mean in lyrical and song contests, may be helpful to some, and for others that choose to not use it, that it fine too. It could be added on the last page of the entries each month as a reminder when one is about to score. It would mention things such as the lyrical one does, about content, structure, interest, but could also add as melody, flow, production, etc...

I know as Nigel said, 1 being low or (not good) and 10 as excellent, should be sufficient, yet some are still wanting to, doing or discussing doing the 1 as top and 10 or ever how many there are as last...maybe the guideline scale would help it to be clearer? What is the harm in that? Would it not also give newer writers an idea of what their scores from each voters mean, to have the list? Wouldn't this be a teaching tool for the people that entered? Let's be honest, sometimes that is the only "critique" they get, from certain voters that do not frequent the song or lyrical boards, but do come to the contests.


Thats my 2 cents worth. Up to TPTB. Not me. :P


I am happy there is a contest, I enjoy being in them, scoring them and as someone else mentioned, seeing my scores to see if my writing is improving or not. It is helpful as a writer, to know if I am doing pretty good, improving, or if I am missing the mark at all together.:)

PS... please understand, everyone involved in moderating, score taking, rule making, I am not complaining agains't you as a person, and I appreciate your work on this. :)

Peace

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#57 User is offline   Salley Gardens Icon

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 09:40 PM

View Postkimberlyinnc, on 19 December 2010 - 05:23 PM, said:

I know as Nigel said, 1 being low or (not good) and 10 as excellent, should be sufficient, yet some are still wanting to, doing or discussing doing the 1 as top and 10 or ever how many there are as last...maybe the guideline scale would help it to be clearer? What is the harm in that? Would it not also give newer writers an idea of what their scores from each voters mean, to have the list? Wouldn't this be a teaching tool for the people that entered? Let's be honest, sometimes that is the only "critique" they get, from certain voters that do not frequent the song or lyrical boards, but do come to

The only problem I see with this is someone has to specifically define what makes a good song, and assign those specific elements a score. I'm not sure any two people around here would agree on all of the specifics, let alone place the same value on which is more important.

For example, what value would production hold? Would that an be essential element, meaning that a song would have to be produced expertly to score a "1"; or would it be a final deciding factor, meaning if a song has everything else, so a top notch production good make the song a "10" instead of a "9". Some people don't give a hoot about production, and would rather not consider that as an element at all. Others can't agree on what production even means... is it mixing? is it singing in tune? Is it choice of gender for the singer?

Then we'd have to consider genre... the genres don't all share the same characteristics. What's important in one doesn't even exits in another (hence Donna and Bubbs developing a new genre comp). That scoring list would have to take all that into account, too!

I would hope that anyone on this Board, or any music listener in general knows what they like or don't like. I'm not a big fan of telling the listener what they're supposed to like and how much weight they're supposed to give those elements.

#58 User is offline   kimberlyinnc Icon

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 10:56 PM

I suppose the reason I felt it ( a scale for the song contest) could be made is because someone made one and it was posted in the rules for lyrical. Did everyone come to an agreement on this one? I don't see the difference...really...could we say the same thing and argue who has the right to say what is good about a lyric and what is not? I know personal preference is still going to come into play. It would not be telling anyone how to vote but be a guideline, as the other is set to be, I am just going by what was done way before I ever got here, and trying to make suggestions by those past decisions that appear to have been made and are still there in black and white. I am not pulling this from out of space :rolleyes:

BUT, I will still wonder why there was one made for lyrical, but why it would not be ok to do the same for songs. I don't want any hard feelings or to cause problems so I will politely chose to bow out of the conversation. I will let everyone else hash it out. I have tried to make my point, but obviously to not avail. :huh:

Have a wonderful holiday all. :) HUGS!! :)

PS. Good luck Jason. I feel for ya friend. :lol:

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#59 User is offline   Salley Gardens Icon

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 12:43 AM

View Postkimberlyinnc, on 19 December 2010 - 08:56 PM, said:

I don't want any hard feelings or to cause problems so I will politely chose to bow out of the conversation.

Kim, I don't think your opinions can cause hard feelings; This thread is the perfect place to continue expressing them!

The reason why guidelines are different for varying comps is because they are set by the people who run the particular comps. Not only are they different for the Songs/Lyric comps, but the others have their own criteria, too (ie: Match the Melody, Collabs, etc.)

Donna and Bubbles will be creating criteria for the new contest they will be running.

Whatever the criteria are, they *have* to make sense to the person/people running the contest, because s/he has to feel comfortable with making the necessary decisions regarding how to "enforce" compliance.

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 04:59 AM

View PostAlistair S, on 19 December 2010 - 01:55 PM, said:

I can see scope for confusion there, Robby (and when people get confused, they can become agitated).

For example, let's say we have a contest with 6 songs.

Rank them, from first to last (with a "lowest score wins" philosophy):

Song D - 1 points
Song B - 2 points
Song C - 3 points
Song F - 4 points
Song E - 5 points
Song A - 6 points

Now, let's try again, making some equal:

Song D - 1 points
Song B - 2 points?
Song C - 2 points?
Song F - 2 points?
Song E - ? points?
Song A - ? points?

How many points do the last two songs get? It should be 5 and 6, but some people will expect 3 and 4.

Come to that, should the equal songs receive 2, 3 or 4 points? I could argue it whatever way.

It would be simpler, and less prone to dissent, if you had to rank and separate every song.



Hi Alistair

Sorry I missed this

"Points" are not necessary:

One person might go:

1 Song A
2 Song D
3 Song E
4 Song B
5 Song C

Whereas another would go:

1 Song A
1 Song E
3 Song B
3 Song C
5 Song D

Someone else might go:

1 Song E
2 Song B
2 Song D
4 Song A
4 Song C

and someone else might go:

1 Song A
2 Song C
3 Song D
4 Song B
4 Song E

No "points" necessary and therefore avoiding the "insult" of a low score so each voter simply puts the songs in order of their personal preference

Add up the "ranks" (not points) and lowest number wins ?

It's got to be worth a try

Robby

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 05:25 AM

View PostSalley Gardens, on 20 December 2010 - 06:43 AM, said:

Donna and Bubbles will be creating criteria for the new contest they will be running.

Whatever the criteria are, they *have* to make sense to the person/people running the contest, because s/he has to feel comfortable with making the necessary decisions regarding how to "enforce" compliance.


Apropos the possible new genre contest: Bubbles mentioned a poll earlier. Would it be possible to have one to assess whether this type of contest would be interesting to Musers?

If people would like to go ahead with it, I could envisage once or twice a year.

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#62 User is offline   NigeQ Icon

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 06:00 AM

Kim, can you give me an example of how you think someone could score the songs wrong?

It really doesn’t matter what criteria someone uses (lyric, production, melody, the whole song). All anyone would need to know is what is the maximum they can score and the least. Everything in between is their own grading.

If you went to see a movie and I asked you to grade it and you said 7 out of 10. I wouldn’t need to know exactly what you meant by a 7 I would just assume you thought it was quite a good film compared to others you had seen.

Just a bit more history here. We used to have the 1-2-3 system (similar to this year’s Lyric of the Year comp), however the problem was some entrants would regularly get zero points which can not only be demoralising it can also be misleading.

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 07:02 AM

Thinman,

In your examples, that is how I saw it working, too. However, don't underestimate people's stupidity! :lol:

Where one person will provide:

1 Song A
2 Song B
2 Song C
4 Song D

... another (meaning the same thing) will provide:

1 Song A
2 Song B
2 Song C
3 Song D

Now, the person running the contest can decide on the 1,2,3,4 positioning (for consistency), but when people look at the scores, they will expect to see what they had in their head. They will question it, and it will become a new bone of contention. Even people running the competitions will screw it up (I predict). We already have competitions that say we have joint winners and then declare someone else in second place (when, quite clearly, that "second" place is actually third).

On a separate subject, the problem with guidelines is that those who use them do so literally. If I score a song a 4, it doesn't mean I think "this song is below average and could use a little work to bring it up to average". It could easily mean that there were 14 entries and I felt that this song was less good than the one(s) I scored a 5 or a 6. Also, I believe the reason that you want the .5s is because the lower scores are unavailable to you (thus reducing the range of scores you can give). The reason (I believe) that they are unavailable to you is because you associate them with words like "poor".

The only reason I can see to change the scoring system would be to get away from associating a score with a description, and make it a ranking relative to the other entries (as a ranking system would do).

However, the real issue is that some people will always look at the scores given and react badly to a low score, assuming it was given vindictively (rather than simply accepting that some people will not like their work, while others will). No system can escape that.

The hard truth is that, whenever we put our stuff out there, someone will hate it. Think about a jukebox. For every song that someone chooses to put on, someone else may sigh and say "Oh no, I hate this song". We've probably done it ourselves.

We don't see this so much in critiques, because those that hate what we do will often just choose not to critique. In the contest, however, they have to give a score if they are to vote at all.

Everyone will get some low scores. The thing to do is to focus on the high ones and, if they aren't high enough, use the critique forums to seek ways to improve.

Also, we need to remember that the actual score gien is only relevant in relation to the other scores given by the same voter. I have run a few contests, and different voters score wildly differently. Some will never score a 5 or below. Some will rarely score above a 7, or below a 3. Each is therefore scoring over a different, self-imposed scale.

If we can't hear the message that some people don't like our stuff, perhaps we aren't ready to enter a contest. Switching the system, changing guidelines and so on won't change that fact.
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Posted 20 December 2010 - 07:44 AM

Hi Alistair et al

I'm not worried by peops not liking my stuff - happens all the time !

I have, however, noticed people getting "irked" at being given a score of 4 or less and I just thought each voter putting the songs in an order of preference would avoid that (slightly) sensitive area.

It's pretty obvious that if you have 3 equal "firsts" your next song will be a "fourth" etc, etc. It's an easier "rule" to comprehend than not being allowed to give more than one 9 or 10 under the current process ?

But I have no worries either way - seriously - low scores do not worry me I am happy for people to listenaroonie

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 07:54 AM

Yeah, Robby. I hear you.

I have no doubts that you have the right attitude! My comments weren't aimed at you at all (or at anyone in particular, except maybe previous members who have left after a tantrum following low scores).

I understand your point about ranking avoiding the sensitive area of getting a "3" (for example). I think that is the main point in favour of it. Time will tell if people then become sensitive to being ranked low (as opposed to being scored low).
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Posted 20 December 2010 - 08:20 AM

I have just been looking at the Lyric scores for December. There were 14 songs. One voter gave 8 of those songs a 10 and the remaining 6 songs a 9, to me that is rather meaningless scoring and a good example of the sort of scoring that made me limit the number of top scores. Thankfully most people don't score like that (i.e. differentiating 14 lyrics by a single point) otherwise there would be no value in having a comp.

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 08:26 AM

Agreed, Nige.

However, there was no published rule to prevent it for that comp, so I had to accept it. My fault, probably - I should have had your rule in the voting instructions (and would have it next time).
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Posted 20 December 2010 - 09:42 AM

View PostNigeQ, on 20 December 2010 - 08:20 AM, said:

I have just been looking at the Lyric scores for December. There were 14 songs. One voter gave 8 of those songs a 10 and the remaining 6 songs a 9, to me that is rather meaningless scoring and a good example of the sort of scoring that made me limit the number of top scores. Thankfully most people don't score like that (i.e. differentiating 14 lyrics by a single point) otherwise there would be no value in having a comp.


I honestly don't see how someone could score this way in good faith. Either this person is an idiot with no skill at differentiating quality, or they're making a half-assed attempt at rigging their own score average. I'm not crazy about the ranking system that some are proposing because I don't think it will make any difference in the results but if it stops ridiculous voting like this, I'm all for it.
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#69 User is offline   Zeligovitch Icon

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 10:19 AM

I'm new here, as you know, and I'm surprised by the seriousness of all this discussion. For me, this is fun and that's all. I've voted twice and never gave less than 5 points. That's because I take into account that nobody is professional here and even if I think a song is really poor, I know how much work it takes to make it, wathever your talent is. So I try to find someting good in every song as I always feel moved by the fact that somebody tries their maximum to express their feeling through a tune. That is something beautiful to me.
In a professional contest, I'd vote in a totally different way and be much more critic with all the contestants using more severe criterias, as the purpose would be completely different for the contestants too.
But anyway, I think it's great to have this contest and I'll be back.

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 10:54 AM

View PostZeligovitch, on 20 December 2010 - 03:19 PM, said:

I'm new here, as you know, and I'm surprised by the seriousness of all this discussion.
It’s a perennial discussion. The debate here is quite civilised compared to some of the stuff we’ve had in the past. Last year’s was mainly about making it 1 to 10 instead of 1 to 5 (with half marks). Then as soon as I made it 1 to 10 folk wanted half marks too :) I took away the grading guidelines (as requested by many) yet it seems some folk never even noticed. I think the system we currently have is about as fair as it can be whilst still allowing contestants to vote.

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 11:08 AM

It's funny for us oldtimers to see this discussion pop up every now and then.
Bottom line is we've tried it many different ways, current way seems to work best, some people with low scores will complain, you can't please everyone.
If people are confused with directions like "score 1-10 with 1=poor, 10=excellent" I mean, come on. :D
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#72 User is offline   Salley Gardens Icon

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 11:44 AM

View PostDonnaMarilyn, on 20 December 2010 - 03:25 AM, said:

Apropos the possible new genre contest: Bubbles mentioned a poll earlier. Would it be possible to have one to assess whether this type of contest would be interesting to Musers?

If people would like to go ahead with it, I could envisage once or twice a year.

Donna

Well... if it were me (and it's not), I'd avoid a poll for interest, and just start drumming up interest while planning the first comp. Since it takes awhile to write in a new genre from scratch, the contest could be announced well in advance (2-3 months?), allowing people to even get feedback in the songs forum first (just an idea...)

For me, any contest is successful as long as it's got at least 3 entries.

#73 User is offline   Salley Gardens Icon

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 11:50 AM

View PostNigeQ, on 20 December 2010 - 04:00 AM, said:

Just a bit more history here. We used to have the 1-2-3 system (similar to this year’s Lyric of the Year comp), however the problem was some entrants would regularly get zero points which can not only be demoralising it can also be misleading.

Oh, I remember that system, and it was awful!

I hated having to pick and rank the top three in order... not only did it not reflect how I felt about the songs, but rarely would even one of my top 3 show in the winners' circle!

#74 User is offline   Zeligovitch Icon

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 12:07 PM

The perfect contest for me in this forum would be a "Cover a Muse song". It would be interesting to see how people would interpret somebody else's song. That would be a fascinating experience and be enlightening as to the importance of the arrangement.We would learn a lot, I think, even if this exercise would be difficult and who knows, maybe even dangerous. Anyway, I'd like to choose somebody else's song and make my own version and I'd like to hear a song of mine sung in a very different way. What do you think?

#75 User is offline   Salley Gardens Icon

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 12:09 PM

View Postdaddio, on 20 December 2010 - 07:42 AM, said:

I honestly don't see how someone could score this way in good faith. Either this person is an idiot with no skill at differentiating quality, or they're making a half-assed attempt at rigging their own score average. I'm not crazy about the ranking system that some are proposing because I don't think it will make any difference in the results but if it stops ridiculous voting like this, I'm all for it.

I can think of another reason. This scoring could have been done by a person who values personal "niceness" over anything else. Feeling like a "bad guy" for giving a low score is intolerable for a "nice" person, therefore the scoring has almost nothing to do with the songs...

#76 User is offline   daddio Icon

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 12:31 PM

View PostSalley Gardens, on 20 December 2010 - 11:44 AM, said:

View PostDonnaMarilyn, on 20 December 2010 - 03:25 AM, said:

Apropos the possible new genre contest: Bubbles mentioned a poll earlier. Would it be possible to have one to assess whether this type of contest would be interesting to Musers?

If people would like to go ahead with it, I could envisage once or twice a year.

Donna

Well... if it were me (and it's not), I'd avoid a poll for interest, and just start drumming up interest while planning the first comp. Since it takes awhile to write in a new genre from scratch, the contest could be announced well in advance (2-3 months?), allowing people to even get feedback in the songs forum first (just an idea...)

For me, any contest is successful as long as it's got at least 3 entries.


Here's another can o' worms. I'd like to see how you're going to define the genres. I think that unless you set some very specific criteria, some people's genre definitions are highly subjective.
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#77 User is offline   DonnaMarilyn Icon

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 01:54 PM

View Postdaddio, on 20 December 2010 - 06:31 PM, said:

View PostSalley Gardens, on 20 December 2010 - 11:44 AM, said:

View PostDonnaMarilyn, on 20 December 2010 - 03:25 AM, said:

Apropos the possible new genre contest: Bubbles mentioned a poll earlier. Would it be possible to have one to assess whether this type of contest would be interesting to Musers?

If people would like to go ahead with it, I could envisage once or twice a year.

Donna

Well... if it were me (and it's not), I'd avoid a poll for interest, and just start drumming up interest while planning the first comp. Since it takes awhile to write in a new genre from scratch, the contest could be announced well in advance (2-3 months?), allowing people to even get feedback in the songs forum first (just an idea...)

For me, any contest is successful as long as it's got at least 3 entries.


Here's another can o' worms. I'd like to see how you're going to define the genres. I think that unless you set some very specific criteria, some people's genre definitions are highly subjective.


Absolutely, daddio. And although the "genre" contest may not even eventuate - and if it does, it won't be before spring - I've already begun to make notes with regard to criteria for one particular genre. ;)

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#78 User is offline   Salley Gardens Icon

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 02:28 PM

I'm curious...

Do discussions like this go on for the way the Lyrics Competitions are scored? And do people insist there are conspiracies, sabotage, and accuse people of cheating in the Lyrics contests?

Or is it mostly in the Songs Contests?

I don't recall this happening in the Collabs and Match the Melody comps (unless my memory is failing)...

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 02:36 PM

View PostSalley Gardens, on 20 December 2010 - 07:28 PM, said:

Do discussions like this go on for the way the Lyrics Competitions are scored?
No, they are all high as a kite over there - each contestant gets provided with a special cookie on entry ;)

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 02:58 PM

Here's a silly hypothesis

Let's say by some strange quirk of the laws governing this an all universes (yet to be discovered of course) the following songs were entered into the January Song Comp:

Song A: Under My Skin - Frank Sinatra
Song B: Like A Rolling Stone - Bob Dylan
Song C: Beyond The Sea - Bobby Darin
Song D: Sympathy For The Devil - The Rolling Stones
Song E: Born To Run - Bruce Springsteen
Song F: Agadoo - Black Lace
Song G: Strange Fruit - Billie Holliday
Song H: Still Ill - The Smiths
Song I: Rainy Night In Soho - The Pogues
Song J: Alexandre Leaving - Laughing Leonard Cohen

You would be knackered with the scoring system cos anything less than a 10 would be a total insult and they would all (well mostly) be pissed off never to return

But with a ranking system "Like A Rolling Stone" would be the clear winner and nobody could or would argue and nobody would be pissed off ?

Or would they ?

TeeHee

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#81 User is offline   Alistair S Icon

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 04:14 PM

If you could guarantee that Black Lace and The Smiths would never return, I might consider some strategic low marking .. :lol:
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Posted 20 December 2010 - 04:21 PM

We are all corruptable Alistair !!!!

I decree today that life is simply taking and not giving
England is mine and it owes me a living..................................

The best start ever to a song ?

#83 User is offline   Salley Gardens Icon

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 04:54 PM

View PostNigeQ, on 20 December 2010 - 12:36 PM, said:

View PostSalley Gardens, on 20 December 2010 - 07:28 PM, said:

Do discussions like this go on for the way the Lyrics Competitions are scored?
No, they are all high as a kite over there - each contestant gets provided with a special cookie on entry ;)

:lol: :lol: :P :D

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 05:02 PM

Wait? They have COOKIES???

:( Why did no one bother to tell me this?

#85 User is offline   Alistair S Icon

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 05:51 PM

Thinman - sorry mate, I fall into the "why didn't Morrissey's parents put him in a sack and drown him in the canal at birth" camp. I know some want him canonised. I just don't see it.

Bubbles - if you read the actual lyrics, I think it's obvious.

"What was I smoking? ... Nothing!"

/whistles

/nibbles cookie innocently
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Posted 20 December 2010 - 06:01 PM

View PostAlistair S, on 20 December 2010 - 10:51 PM, said:

Thinman - sorry mate, I fall into the "why didn't Morrissey's parents put him in a sack and drown him in the canal at birth" camp. I know some want him canonised. I just don't see it.


He would write a great song about that !!!

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 06:07 PM

View PostAlistair S, on 20 December 2010 - 05:51 PM, said:

Bubbles - if you read the actual lyrics, I think it's obvious.

"What was I smoking? ... Nothing!"

/whistles

/nibbles cookie innocently

:D :D :D :rolleyes:

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#88 User is offline   bubblingsoul Icon

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 06:24 PM

So you don't want me to have any cookies??? Hrrrrmph. Sour puss.

:rolleyes::P

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 07:23 PM

I was just reminded of another system we used (maybe once) in which voters are given a number of points to distribute.

Let's say a voter is given 10 points. They can give the winner all 10, or split them in whatever proportion they choose.

What I like is that every vote is a positive vote.

It has problems too, though, admittedly.
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#90 User is offline   kimberlyinnc Icon

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 07:37 PM

View PostNigeQ, on 20 December 2010 - 06:00 AM, said:

Kim, can you give me an example of how you think someone could score the songs wrong?

It really doesn’t matter what criteria someone uses (lyric, production, melody, the whole song). All anyone would need to know is what is the maximum they can score and the least. Everything in between is their own grading.

If you went to see a movie and I asked you to grade it and you said 7 out of 10. I wouldn’t need to know exactly what you meant by a 7 I would just assume you thought it was quite a good film compared to others you had seen.

Just a bit more history here. We used to have the 1-2-3 system (similar to this year’s Lyric of the Year comp), however the problem was some entrants would regularly get zero points which can not only be demoralising it can also be misleading.

Nigel, I do not know of anyone scoring "wrong" unless they do as someone said one time that a few were still scoring as ONE being fav. and 10 being least fav..in that case, yes it is not correct, and could alter scores, would it not? anyways. I do not like math and don't want to discuss math :blink: :lol:

I was only responding to what I had seen in the lyric contest, a scale, and asked if it would be helpful to have one for song contest too. That way if there is a criteria for each number and what that score means, it may help the writer to see what the scores mean, as it has a somewhat critique aspect to it. If it would not, that is fine. No skin off my back.

Have a good holiday all. :)
Kim
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Posted 20 December 2010 - 07:45 PM

To add, I would not mind the idea of having genre contests, but would there be enough people to enter if something like Jazz or hip hop was chosen? And who would decide if it were "JAZZY" or hip hoppy B) enough to be labeled as such?

Many songs cross multiple genres. I just feel it would be difficult to mandate. I do think it would be fun to hear the musers perform other genres than their norm, and perhaps we can just do a contest sometime where its outside one's comfort zone...for instance, Alistair doing a POP number, Funk Daddy doing a hip hop...Daddio doing a hard rock number. I do not mean telling someone which one they have to do, but giving them that choice that they would be geniune and do one that is not their normal stuff or even new for them.

It would be fun to see it, hear it, but the specific genres contest may be hard to regulate and score.

my 1.5 cents worth.

Kimberly
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#92 User is offline   Salley Gardens Icon

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 07:52 PM

View PostAlistair S, on 20 December 2010 - 05:23 PM, said:

I was just reminded of another system we used (maybe once) in which voters are given a number of points to distribute.

Let's say a voter is given 10 points. They can give the winner all 10, or split them in whatever proportion they choose.

What I like is that every vote is a positive vote.

It has problems too, though, admittedly.

Oh! Oh! I remember that one, too! That was a *lot* better than "top three", but not as good as what we have now... (IMO)

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 09:07 PM

View PostAlistair S, on 20 December 2010 - 06:23 PM, said:

I was just reminded of another system we used (maybe once) in which voters are given a number of points to distribute.

Let's say a voter is given 10 points. They can give the winner all 10, or split them in whatever proportion they choose.

What I like is that every vote is a positive vote.

It has problems too, though, admittedly.


Hmmmm. I think it may have been in the Artist Café for a challenge of some sort. (???) Oh hell. I can't remember.

#94 User is offline   NigeQ Icon

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 04:04 AM

View Postbubblingsoul, on 21 December 2010 - 02:07 AM, said:

View PostAlistair S, on 20 December 2010 - 06:23 PM, said:

I was just reminded of another system we used (maybe once) in which voters are given a number of points to distribute.

Let's say a voter is given 10 points. They can give the winner all 10, or split them in whatever proportion they choose.

What I like is that every vote is a positive vote.

It has problems too, though, admittedly.


Hmmmm. I think it may have been in the Artist Café for a challenge of some sort. (???) Oh hell. I can't remember.
It's Song Of The Year!! :) - you get 6 points to allocate but no single song can be awarded more than 3 points - anyway more on that later ;)

#95 User is offline   Len Icon

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 04:34 AM

So, lots of discussion but what's the result?

Status quo?*
Change something?

Time for that poll Bubbs?

* Now there's a thought for a song contest, three chords only...
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Posted 22 December 2010 - 05:25 AM

View PostLen, on 22 December 2010 - 09:34 AM, said:

So, lots of discussion but what's the result?

Status quo?*
Change something?

Time for that poll Bubbs?

* Now there's a thought for a song contest, three chords only...
Well, it's quite clear that whichever method is chosen not everyone will be happy. I think the industry pro thing is a non-starter, So we need to continue scoring the songs. I also think the genre thing will cause many headaches and I certainly won't be running it. I personally think that the monthly song comp scoring is about as fair as it can be, but I do have an enhancement suggestion that want to run it past a couple of people first. And it will be more in line with ranking the songs against each other, so we can move away from low scores meaning a song is bad.

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 05:54 AM

Agreed, nothing will make everyone happy, so lets have a poll to get the majority view. To me it looks like these are some options to decide on. I'm sure I've missed some.

1. Go from absolute scoring to a ranking system.
2.1 If absolute scoring, do away with the Lyrics scoring guideline and go for 1-Bad, 10-Excellent, as per Songs.
2.2 Do the opposite; keep the lyrics score sheet and bring back (or write) the Songs scoring guideline
2.3 Allow half marks, or not.
2.4. Use the "only one 9 or 10" rule for all contests, or not.
3. All contests use the same scoring system (give or take some special cases like end of year contests), or let each contest have its own scoring system decided by the person running the contest.
4. Have genre contests, or not.
5. Have a contest schedule to avoid too many contests at the same time, or not.

My only real issue here is that we should not let this thread come to nothing. If we don't decide on something, even if that is the status quo, then we're doomed to keep repeating this discussion month after month. This is just the right time to do this, but let's make it count folks.
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Posted 22 December 2010 - 06:37 AM

View PostLen, on 22 December 2010 - 10:54 AM, said:

Agreed, nothing will make everyone happy, so lets have a poll to get the majority view. To me it looks like these are some options to decide on. I'm sure I've missed some.

1. Go from absolute scoring to a ranking system.
2.1 If absolute scoring, do away with the Lyrics scoring guideline and go for 1-Bad, 10-Excellent, as per Songs.
2.2 Do the opposite; keep the lyrics score sheet and bring back (or write) the Songs scoring guideline
2.3 Allow half marks, or not.
2.4. Use the "only one 9 or 10" rule for all contests, or not.
3. All contests use the same scoring system (give or take some special cases like end of year contests), or let each contest have its own scoring system decided by the person running the contest.
4. Have genre contests, or not.
5. Have a contest schedule to avoid too many contests at the same time, or not.

My only real issue here is that we should not let this thread come to nothing. If we don't decide on something, even if that is the status quo, then we're doomed to keep repeating this discussion month after month. This is just the right time to do this, but let's make it count folks.


Thinman votes for the following system:

Replace scoring 1 - 10 with simply ordering the songs in terms of your preference like chart positions(heretofroward referred to as a "ranking system")
Equal ranks are allowed so if you rank 4 songs equal first the next song is 5th and so on and so on...........(comprendez ?)
If you want, you can rank your own song first (they are my children and I love them above all others)

Competitors "charts" to be published non-competitors only published by permission ?

All Chart Positions are summed and the lowest number wins



Thanks Len - someone has to chair a meeting !!!!


Cheers

Robby

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 06:40 AM

This is an interesting discussion and i think Len you are right - theres no point in having this discussion and it coming to nothing. My view on the options are:

1. Go from absolute scoring to a ranking system.

Ranking would probably be the easiest way to score and I think more non-contestants would vote because of it.

2.1 If absolute scoring, do away with the Lyrics scoring guideline and go for 1-Bad, 10-Excellent, as per Songs.
2.2 Do the opposite; keep the lyrics score sheet and bring back (or write) the Songs scoring guideline

I think absolute scoring is probably the most beneficial scoring system as it provides the songwriter with some kind of feedback if they are happpy with it or not. I think we need some scoring guideline but 1 bad 10 excellent is fine by me!

2.3 Allow half marks, or not.

I think this will only complicate matters

2.4. Use the "only one 9 or 10" rule for all contests, or not.

I like this rule its the halfway house between ranking and absolute, be good to see this rule used more commonly

3. All contests use the same scoring system (give or take some special cases like end of year contests), or let each contest have its own scoring system decided by the person running the contest.

I think this would certainly would make things less complicated - if there was just one muse scoring system

4. Have genre contests, or not.

I like the idea - but i think its hard to manage - genres are far too vague nowadays - you would have to have some clear rules for each contest, I would rather see more challenges in our contests - like the idea of turning in this month lyrics, the 70s theme of the collab etc.

5. Have a contest schedule to avoid too many contests at the same time, or not.

Since i rejoined the contest schedule has looked fine not overcrowded and pretty much one at a time - whatever you have done this year seems great to me :)

John

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 06:59 AM

I am all for people expressing opinions, but let's not kid ourselves that this is a poll or that we will arrive at consensus.

Firstly, the questions asked represent multiple polls.

Secondly, only those who visit this thread will express a view (and there are plenty of people with an interest who will not visit this thread).

Thirdly, there is no commitment from those who run the competitions to run them along the lines expressed here. As far as I am concerned, the way the contest is run is entirely down to them (though I would hope they would listen to input - and from what I can see, they do).

Fourthly, some of the above are primarily issues for those running contests (such as having a schedule).

Lastly, how will anyone make sense of any of the answers? The reply above gives answers that are in direct conflict with each other. For example, a ranking system does not require an answer to question 2.

Having said all that, my "vote" is to give Nige's ideas a try. It sounds as if his ideas have legs.

PS. By the way, who says we have "absolute" scoring now? As far as I am concerned, relative scoring is perfectly doable in the current system. In fact, I score relatively.
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"In my opinion this is a bunch of filth and garbage and we need far less this type of lyrics gettin back in the ears of our children." - from a critique received

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