[Len]

Just starting a conversation here.

How many lyricists here consciously write to a specific rhythm?

You can write
TUM te TUM te TUM te TUM and make it 4/4
or you could write
TUM te te TUM te te TUM TUM TUM and make it a waltz.

Does anyone here start a lyric with the thought, "right, time for a waltz lyric, haven't done that in a while". If you have, what patterns do you use? If you haven't do you think it's a way to go?

I'm curious because I think lyricists can write the rhythm, not just the words.

[Alistair S]

I always write to a rhythm .. but to the rhythm that is driven by the words or the music that comes to mind.

I can't think I have ever started by thinking "I'll write something in 3/4", even when I have done exactly that. I do see it as a potential way to go though. Maybe even kick off a drum beat in the chosen time sig and see where it takes you?

You'd just have to be careful to change the rhythm where needed, via the words (even if the time sig remains the same).

[daddio]

absolutely I write to a rhythm and I agree that lyricists can write the rhythm as well as the words.
Sometimes, as Alistair said, the lyrics dictate the rhythm I write, other times I decide to write a waltz, or something else specific, and write to that rhythm.

[Len]

absolutely I write to a rhythm and I agree that lyricists can write the rhythm as well as the words.
Sometimes, as Alistair said, the lyrics dictate the rhythm I write, other times I decide to write a waltz, or something else specific, and write to that rhythm.

What other rhythms would you deliberately write to, Don? Could you spell them out in TUM te's? I'm curious as I'm starting to write in this way, to get the template set down first. I've been working on waltzes but I wonder what other common patterns there are. I know the rhythms are endless but are there common ones?

[Alistair S]

As in:

Tum tum ti-tum, tum-tum tum-tum? (a waltz, by Alistair S)

However, if you write to a time sig, surely you often want the lyrical melody to complement it, as opposed to replicate it?

Maybe the best thing to do is to load up some drum software and experiment with different styles and time sigs?

[Len]

Is that a waltz? Shows how much I know

I'm interested in how aware lyricists are about consciously writing to a rhythm, right from the off, before they even get a line in their head. Rhythm is an important foundation, it can set the tone, so deciding early on seems a good way to go.

I might want to write a love song based around a bar room dance, so I'll choose a waltz rhythm. Then I write lyrics to that rhythm.

And I agree, lyrics that compliment, not slavishly follow. But the lyrics will still be standing on that rhythm.

For example, here's some lyrical lines:
Big dog walk down main street down town ( TUM TUM TUM TUM TUM TUM TUM TUM - a march)
Pretty blues eyes, a cheerleader smile (TUM te TUM TUM, te TUM TUM te TUM - a waltz?)
Jimmy took a lightning ride cross and cold and lonely sky (TUM te TUM te TUM te TUM, TUM te TUm te TUM te TUM - common meter, maybe, for story songs)

What I'm trying to illustrate for anyone reading this is how the rhythm is a foundation for the lyrical topic. The rhythm you chose should complement the lyric. And I'm interested to know if anyone does this; if so, what rhythms suit which lyrical topics?

[Alistair S]

It's an interesting question, Len. I'll watch to see what real musicians say.

My gut feel is that it is somewhat more difficult than that. Take two songs - You've Got To Hide Your Love Away (Beatles) and We Are The Champions (Queen). Both are arguably in 6/8 (the Queen one is actually a mixture of time sigs). However, how well do the lyrics match?

Everywhere people stare
Each and every day
I can see them laugh at me
And I hear them say

Hey you've got to hide your love away
Hey you've got to hide your love away

and

Ive paid my dues -
Time after time -
Ive done my sentence
But committed no crime -
And bad mistakes
Ive made a few
Ive had my share of sand kicked in my face -
But Ive come through

We are the champions - my friends
And well keep on fighting - till the end -
We are the champions -
We are the champions
No time for losers
cause we are the champions - of the world -

I could add The House Of The Rising Sun and Nellie The Elephant...

There are such a variety of time signatures (and songs that can be given as examples of all of them) that I suspect that it is more important to maintain a consistent rhythm in a lyric (with the stresses falling naturally) than to adopt a given time signature.

But, as I say, let's see what the real cognoscenti say.

[Corinne]

Not to open up the lyrics vs poetry can of worms - but for instance there's iambic pentameter - it has a beat, a rhythm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iambic_pentameter

Most well written lyrics have a rhythm, a meter that the music should mirror. I know when I've read a well written lyric - It sings all by itself. One can automatically hear a melody.

[daddio]

I'm not too good on the TUM te TUMS, Len. To correct what I said in my earlier post, I will set up a rhythm and write lyrics to it and compose to it but I never think too much about the TUM Te TUM aspect. You gave some great examples but I bet I could write your march lyrics to a waltz rhythm and make them work.
Well written lyrics do have a natural rhythm and reading a good set of lyrics always suggests music to me. Part of that is the rhythm of the words, part of it is the rhythm of the song structure.

[Salley Gardens]

Please be gentle with me, as I don't speak "TUM-te"... As I understand what you're asking, Len, I agree with Corinne: the best place to start is learning the definitions of and how to write in Iambic and Trochaic prose. This deals mostly with where the emphases are placed (TUM-tum vs. tum-TUM)

A waltz is in what's called 3/4 time. In "TUM-te", I think this means there are three TUMs in a bar/measure, with the first one emphasized:

TUM tum tum | TUM tum tum | TUM tum tum ||

The waltz here, is the basic "meter", and there can be different rhythms within that meter. Each TUM can be broken in half ("te-te" = tum), and used in any combination you can think of

TUM te-te tum | TUM te-te te-te | TUM TUM TUM | TE-TE tum tum ||

A "tum" can be split into three "did-dl-y" and used the same way and in combination with "tum" and "te-te":

TUM did-dl-y tum | DID-DL-Y tum tum ||

Okay, my brain is starting to hurt, and there's too much more... How'd I do speaking "TUM-te"? I *really* suggest learning the language in music theory notation. It works the same way, but without the difficulty of people's speech accents getting in the way. The pictures of the notes are all the same from country to country, although they may be named differently.

Oh! Oh! I've got an idea, if it's okay with Alistair. I transcribed his "match the melody contest" diddy. I could post a picture of it, and one of you could transcribe in "TUM-te", then both versions would be available to compare. Reading pitches isn't important, you'll be able to tell if the pitch goes up or down, and the note symbols will tell you if it's a "tum" or "te-te" or whatever...

[Corinne]

Please be gentle with me, as I don't speak "TUM-te

neither do I

[Len]

Salley, I used to speak "DUM de" as well, but it's all lost to me now...

Yes it would be good to see Alistair's melody in that way.

I'm just exploring the value in trying to write lyrics to a rythmic template and all these comments are very useful. If I set out to write a waltz I can start with this basic pattern:

DUM de de DUM de de DUM de de DUM (ah, now it's coming back to me!)

So a basic lyrical match would be:
STOOD in the GLOW of a SOdium LAMP

I can (and should) vary that pattern by for example leaving a space or doubling up, but the basic emphasis should still be the same.
STOOD in the GLOW of a - - far LAMP; here I've left a pause for two measures., but the lyric still maps on to the DUM de de pattern.

So the lyrical examples that Alistair quoted should (though I won't try) map on to the musical rhythm. There will be gaps and doubled up words but they may match up. As you've said, the musical rhythm will also vary, but the principle will be the same.

So my theory is that you can map out your rhythm with TUM te's (or DUM de's if you're foreign), allow it to vary just as song rhythms vary, and make sure that the lyrics map on to the template. The main point is that the emphasised words should fall on to the TUMs.

Likewise the song rhythm will also map on to the same template. If they do, prosody should be a doddle!

Any of this making sense?

[Alistair S]

Any of this making sense?

Sadly, not to me

I don't think there is a better template then the words you have already written in (for example) your first line, second line and so on. If you follow those, a rhythm comes naturally.

When it comes to add music, most lyrics could be put to almost any time signature (i think), though some will lend themselves better than others. 3/4 .. 6/8 .. 12/8 .. 4/4 .. what's the difference? Partially it might lie in line length - longer lines may narrow the choices. It's also about the natural pauses that a speaker would use when saying the actual words - and the pauses that may be wanted for emphasis. Time signatures quite often change during the course of a song, as does tempo.

There is a game that can be played in which one takes a lyric and sings it to another song's tune. It's surprising how often it works.

Having said all that, you could choose to write to certain well-known styles. Maybe dances would be a good "template"? You mentioned a waltz. How about a samba? A tango? A rumba?

The difficulty with types of "rhythm" is that they are (in my opinion) unlikely to provide sufficient of a template in the sense I think you mean. Take, for example, reggae. Are all of Bob Marley's lyrics "cookie-cutter"? And yet most reggae is in 4/4 time. It is distinguished from other styles by the accents being placed on different beats (it makes more of the off-beat). Even narrowing it down to say "reggae" won't give a "template" for a lyric.

The same is true for a "country waltz" or any other style.

I think for the "template" you seek, you need a pattern of note durations. You could think of this musically (two crotchets, followed by a minim .. or whatever), but why bother? The rhythm is already there in the words you have just written! All that has to be done is for the lyricist to replicate it consistently and the music will fall into place.

[Len]

Ah oh well Worth a try.

Perhaps, as Daddio says, words are elastic enough that they can stretch to meet most rythmic demands.

Thanks all for humouring me

[Salley Gardens]

Any of this making sense?

Actually... yes! I go back to Corinne's original reply. Search "iambic" and "trochaic" meters on the net. I think this is really what you're attempting to do. And you're in good company... Shakespeare is just one example. I also have a book about writing hymns that discusses this in detail. It means one can write to a rhythm, and then the words can actually fit several tunes. In the past, I've used the example of singling the lyrics to the theme song for the TV show, "Gilligan's Island" to the melody of "Amazing Grace" (and visa verse).

(What you're describing isn't really related to a "Waltz", though...)

[Alistair S]

Ah oh well Worth a try.

Perhaps, as Daddio says, words are elastic enough that they can stretch to meet most rythmic demands.

Thanks all for humouring me

I wouldn't give up yet, Len!

If I recall, zmulls had some ideas of links between lyrical and musical rhythm (and I think it's not just about metric feet). I also suspect Lazz may have some useful input when he gets himself home later this week.

I just struggle with this stuff. I'm not that analytical when it comes to these things!

P.S. Of course, the simple answer is to always write to music, or write the music and the lyric together

[jonie]

Wow, I didn't know it was supposed to be so complicated. I think I do it in my head. All the Tum te tums and Dum de dums are actual words. Some as placeholders to begin with.

I always write to a rhythm (sometimes with a melody) and get them from listening to music (because I don't play a musical instrument). I hear a lot of rock songs with similiar rhythms. Same goes for country, pop, blues. I don't know what the time sig is for them, but I can identify them and replicate them when I sit down to write a particular lyric. The rhythm is in my head along with where the stresses should fall.

Having said that, I tend to write to a small selection of rhythms. In an effort to broaden my skills I have been considering delving into the nuts and bolts of the rhythmic patterns I use as well as trying to learn about the construction of rhythms I'm not so familiar with.

Anyone know of a good site (for laymen) where popular songs are deconstructed in such a way? I see that as the best way for non-musician lyricists to grasp in concept what lies beyond instinct.

[Yamaki]

You can write
TUM te TUM te TUM te TUM and make it 4/4
or you could write
TUM te te TUM te te TUM TUM TUM and make it a waltz.

I don't speak TUMtete-ese either, but I'm going to take a stab at something here that maybe will make sense, or might confuse you even more!

Let's take your example of the one you wrote for 4/4 time and put some words to it, a simple little tune everyone knows so the music can go along with it for you.

TUM te TUM te TUM te TUM and make it 4/4 ~ your example
MA ry HAD a LIT tle LAMB

...so far so good? Did I translate right?

Now, sure, you can make that into a song with 4/4 time if you like, but you can also make it into a 3/4 song. 3/4 time has three beats to the bar, so we'll count 1-2-3 instead of the TUM language.

MA ry | HAD a | LIT tle | LAMB its |
12 3 | 12 3 | 1 23 | 12 3 |

Does this make any sense to the TUM guy?

Funny you should bring this topic up, as a couple of weeks ago I just took a song I had written in 4/4 and turned it into a 3/4 - it just was a better fit, sounded better.

While reading through this thread I decided to go to the piano and play a 3/4 time song in 4/4. The song I picked was 'All My Love's Laughter' written by Jimmy Webb. It's on a Jennifer Warnes CD I have. Poked a few buttons for some drums, and sure, I can play it in 4/4 rather than how it is written, but I figure I kinda wrecked the song and I wouldn't want to sing it, hee hee.

I wonder if writing to 1-2-3-4 or 1& 2& 3& 4&, or something like that would work better for you than the TUMS. Have you tried that? That way, if you want to definitely write a waltz, you write it to a 1-2-3.

Sorry I am probably not much help as I don't really get these tums, but I feel they have more to do with meter than the actual musical rhythm.

Edit: It's a bit difficult to show properly with the bars because you can't put extra space when you type here...but the general idea is there, it just that they're not lined up.

[Len]

Having said that, I tend to write to a small selection of rhythms. In an effort to broaden my skills I have been considering delving into the nuts and bolts of the rhythmic patterns I use as well as trying to learn about the construction of rhythms I'm not so familiar with.

That's it, that's the reason why I raised it. We do things from instinct but if we can break it down we can open ourselves up to new methods, and better prosody perhaps? Lyric writing doesn't have to be complicated but if we want to strip the process down to build it again in a better way, it can get complicated for sure

[Len]

Thanks Yamaki, I see your point and you make it well. TUM guy? I did think this was common knowledge but there you go!

Your 3/4 time change turns a one-two plod into a swing rhythm, nice trick. I'm going to read more on these topics.

[Alistair S]

Except that I think swing is more about instruments playing cross-rhythm and using rolled eighths than about a given time signature...

Oh.. I'm getting beyond the limits of my knowledge here

[daddio]

This is the third time I've sat down to try and put this into words. So if it doesn't make sense put it up to my doddering old age.

When I look at a lyric, I'm only interested in the dum de dums in making sure that the song is regular for a melody. In other words, line one of the first verse is exactly the same as line one in every other verse. The same for line two, three, etc. That's where the dum de dums make a difference.

Jonie made a valid point about writing to the rhythms of music that is familiar. I think, that to some degree, that goes to patterns of speech. There are normal pauses in conversational speech and I don't mean between the speakers. I mean in one person's conversational speech. We pause to express emphasis, emotion, etc. We do the same thing when we write songs. There are normal pauses that occur between the lines, those are obvious. But there are other more subtle pauses that occur within lines. These create chunks of dum de dums. Certainly each of these chunks also has rhythm of it's own. Maybe what sounds musical to individual people has to do with how they hear the pauses and the rhythms of the chunks. One person hears the pause in one place, someone else hears it somewhere else. The rhythms of the individual chunks is determined by the pauses. I know that I've read some people's writing and the pauses break the chunks into perfect little patterns that, for me, make them sound musical.

Or all of that could be nonsense.

[Alistair S]

Or all of that could be nonsense.

Well, it makes sense to me! Chunks of dum-de-dums .. yeah!

[Bruce N]

Except that I think swing is more about instruments playing cross-rhythm and using rolled eighths than about a given time signature...

Oh.. I'm getting beyond the limits of my knowledge here

Okay we've found him, he seems to have been masquerading as an musician on this site, but he's outed himself, better call dispatch to send 'round a wagon from the home,....yes that's right.....full restraints....

I don't think there's any right or wrong way of doing it, so many variables involved, are you writing lyrics with support from music ? Or are you writing music with support from lyrics ?

All the things mentioned so far, may and do play a part to differing degrees in writing lyrics, and styles.

From one of my prospectives, I also think the phonics of the words play a part in how well the lyrics fit the music, yeah some words will sound better with certain notes, and what has been mentioned already the stretchability of them, or the use of hard consonants, handy when dealing with tight feet. I also think the only real true rule to follow, is making sure the lyric line starts off on the correct first note, and ends on the correct last note. It's mode of transport in between, is optional.

And move over Alistair, I way beyond my limits here to....

[DannyDep]

...................
I'm curious because I think lyricists can write the rhythm, not just the words.

"...I think good lyricists should write the rhythm, not just the words."
Although, most likely, it's not going to be consciously.

Words, verses, songs all have their own rhythms.
I think that making the rhythms flow (to the human ear, spirit, psyche) leads to some kind of empathetic reaction in the listener.
I think it is also this symbiotic rhythm that causes a musician to hear a lyricist's words and feel that a collaboration could gain positive results.
Now I'm getting way over my head.

It's a gut reaction. i don't think it can be taught.
You either like someone's rhythms or you don't.
You either like a lyric or you don't.
You either like a song or you don't.

Speaking about rhythm, there is a great 3 episode TV series (BBC I believe) moderated by Sir George Martin called "The Rhythm of Life" which I recommend to everyone, not just to those musically inclined.

[Alistair S]

That looks like a fantastic series.

There were 3 parts - Rhythm, Melody and Harmony. The only excerpt that I could find online was an excerpt from the Melody segment, with George discussing "God Only Knows" with Brian Wilson.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9z8xHkSMdo

If anyone knows the whereabouts of any other snippets, I'd love to see them.

[Theresa]

This is interesting. I tend to write similar to what Alistair is saying. Most times (even though I'm not a musician) I get the lyric and rhythm in my head at the same time.
Don't really know where it comes from.

My most recent was

Lets get together forever
love every moment we live
we'll write our own love story
be what we each have to give

The tune I get with this is slow and kind of a waltz.

On the other hand I also got this in my head

I've lived in the arms of hearbreak
sorrow is all I know
pain is a place in my heart
it hurts me to go

The tune or rhythm I get with this is blues...kind of a throaty sound...with a sad strong harmonica in the background


This is the best I can explain how I write the lyric and rhythm or tune.

[oxe57]

Fascinating topic. I can write to a rhythm but I usually find myself coming up with the rhythm shortly after writing the words. I have head rhythms and then I have rhythms from instruments or a drum machine. The head rhythm is probably the toughest for me as I'm writing and keeping time simultaneously. Once a rhythm and melody arrive I begin to trim words and syllables wherever possible. I don't count syllables rather I count stressed beats. The first line of the first verse might have 5 syllables. The first line of the second verse might have 7 syllables. In order to occupy the same space in time (measure) I might use 16th notes in the 7 syllable line and 8th notes in the 5 syllable line. This sounds tricky but works quite well once you get the hang of it. My experience has taught me that a lyricist may not play an instrument but he must think like someone who does and this little technique is a great way of doing that. Your collaborator will love you for it.

[Lazz]

I also suspect Lazz may have some useful input when he gets himself home later this week.

What did I miss ?

How many lyricists here consciously write to a specific rhythm?................. I'm interested in how aware lyricists are about consciously writing to a rhythm, right from the off

All the time, mate. Can’t help it. Rhythm and meter are unavoidable. But, working with a composer, if the circumstance is that I hand him a lyric in need of music, I would never dream of telling him what that rhythm and meter has to be. His interpretive vocabulary will accommodate and carry my words in the manner he considers most appropriate. Music is his job. It’s what he does.

So, while I couldn’t imagine writing lyrics off the top of my head without structural rhythm and pulse, my way of working is not necessarily going to define the finished musical article.

Good job too, I reckon.

But even when they’re finished, they don’t need to be ‘fixed’. It’s great to apply different ‘feels’. Which is probably a very different animal from the ‘rhythm’ we’re talking about above.

I have a penchant for re-interpreting ballads as double-feel sambas, for example. “What’s New” or “You Don’t know What Love Is” work just great when re-styled like this. I like doing reggae versions of some old straight swing type tunes as well. Waltzes as 4/4, 4/4 as a waltz…..

I think maybe I only really like tunes that can be buggered around with like this.

It’s fun.

But I also think it’s illustration that the ‘feel’ employed in a performance is something else and completely different to the essential rhythms I might work to when writing.

what patterns do you use?

Haven’t really given it much thought – save for following Daddio’s dictum of “making sure that the song is regular for a melody” - which is very different from and maybe less rule bound than oxe57’s looser approach of “The first line of the first verse might have 5 syllables. The first line of the second verse might have 7 syllables. In order to occupy the same space in time (measure) I might use 16th notes in the 7 syllable line and 8th notes in the 5 syllable line. This sounds tricky but works quite well once you get the hang of it.”

It seems to me that many folk here follow the oxe57 way – but I wouldn’t call it ‘tricky’, though it clearly works acceptably for lots – I would tend to call it ‘undisciplined’ – with respect…..

My experience has taught me that a lyricist may not play an instrument but he must think like someone who does and this little technique is a great way of doing that. Your collaborator will love you for it.

… because my experience has taught me that, while it’s true that a lyricist needs to think musically, this is definitely not the best way to go about it.

I am confident that if I delivered a lyric as randomly shaped as he describes I would get it thrown straight back. And I believe it would be deserved. My collaborators hate that sort of thing. So that's interesting for me right there. Because it works for him but doesn't follow any style of pattern-making that I have personally found acceptable for a composer.

Obviously – our collaborators are different.

I do still have to recognise, mind you, that this expectation (of formal pattern-repetitions in architecture) is not always reciprocal. Once I faced the lyrical challenge of writing for a given melody which not only changed key for each of its four structural choruses but included different fascinating little written variations and embellishments each time around which all had to be accomodated within a coherent theme. So the rhythmic thinking was a moving target. It took me ferking ages. Tune written for the birth of a little girl, but lyrics only truly complete and performable when she was grown. Maybe 20 years of intermittent persistence later. Must be some kind of record.

Now, I do genuinely like the result. I'm finally happy with it. It works. It's another bleedin' samba. But nonetheless, if I gave a lyric built like the one I ended up with to a composer under normal circumstances I would still predict a swift rejection. They'd be demanding changes all over the place.

What else don’t I understand?

What I'm trying to illustrate for anyone reading this is how the rhythm is a foundation for the lyrical topic. The rhythm you chose should complement the lyric. And I'm interested to know if anyone does this; if so, what rhythms suit which lyrical topics?

I’m still struggling to comprehend this bit.
It’s certainly not a position I can easily agree with.

The main point is that the emphasised words should fall on to the TUMs.

Why ?

Search "iambic" and "trochaic" meters on the net. I think this is really what you're attempting to do. And you're in good company... Shakespeare is just one example.

I have to admit to still being somewhat amazed when people who like to think of themselves as lyricists seem unaware of traditions and terms. I mean, you wouldn’t even find that state of affairs with baseball fans would you ? Oh well, it just strikes me as strange. But, even having said that, I would retreat real fast from any implication that classic poetic meter has any prescriptive value for a lyricist. I personally feel that’s a wee bit dangerous. You tend to end up with, as Dave Frishberg says, doggerel.

Willie the Shake is indeed admirable, but he wasn’t a lyricist.

I also have a book about writing hymns that discusses this in detail. It means one can write to a rhythm, and then the words can actually fit several tunes.

And that’s the genesis of the ‘contrafact’.

The contrafact is a great way to go.
Just like the ‘weigh a pie’ exercise.
A great way to learn.

[oxe57]

I disagree with my fellow Musite LAZZ. The technique I mentioned isn't "undisciplined" at all. I think this technique is a very disciplined way of writing lyrics but let's be honest with each other because music offers so much room for improvisation the only real deciding factor is the finished product. Don't criticize the recipie, only criticize the dish!

[zmulls]

One of my early collabs, I had a lyric and of course had a rhythm in mind. My collaborator said, Hey, I was thinking about doing this is 6/8 time. I simply deadpanned "um....OK....." Now I have a lot better idea what 6/8 sounds like, I couldn't envision it at the time. And of course, his take on it was outstanding.

If one is good, and creative, at rhythm, but tries to communicate to a composer, it can be tricky. I may have an unusual rhythm in mind for a particular line, but someone counting syllables will simply think the line is wrong.

Willie the Shake is indeed admirable, but he wasn’t a lyricist.

But who *is* Sylvia....what *is* she?

[Lazz]

I disagree with my fellow Musite LAZZ.......Don't criticize the recipie, only criticize the dish!

Yeah.
Clearly it works for you, E - but I am sure I know how my collaborators would respond.

Do you work with collaborators yourself ?

But who *is* Sylvia....what *is* she?

Aaah, Sylvia.
My first real girlfriend.
Thanks for bringing her up.
Now please excuse me - I'm off for a quick reverie.

[oxe57]

Just starting a conversation here.

How many lyricists here consciously write to a specific rhythm?

You can write
TUM te TUM te TUM te TUM and make it 4/4
or you could write
TUM te te TUM te te TUM TUM TUM and make it a waltz.

Does anyone here start a lyric with the thought, "right, time for a waltz lyric, haven't done that in a while". If you have, what patterns do you use? If you haven't do you think it's a way to go?

I'm curious because I think lyricists can write the rhythm, not just the words.

LEN I've tried writing a lyric with a specific rhythm in mind but I struggle with it. I have turned on the old Casio keyboard and listened to a pre-programmed beat and wrote lyrics to that but even then I've had to turn the machine off and let my emotions filter on their own. I know that sounds weird but that's how I operate sometimes. My emotions are pushy little devils who insist on being first.

[Alistair S]

I really don't think it's OK to be either rhythmically consistent or emotionally consistent. It has to be both if it is to work properly.

[Simple Simon]

I really don't think it's OK to be either rhythmically consistent or emotionally consistent. It has to be both if it is to work properly.

The mind remembers rhythm patterns. The mind responds to emotions. Put them together and you have a memorable song.

[SoddyBottoms]

it works either way music 1st or lyrics 1st .. at the moment i am writing lyrics for a smokin southern rock tune by another artist who plays every instrument at professional level and sings plus engineers like a pro but cannot write lyrics.. i love to work with someone of that musical ability... For me ,, i usually find a song with just a small riff on the guitar or a short lyric whilst I'm kicked back and from there i sing it over and over while experimenting with the structure a little and just let it come out as it may and build the song 1 line at a time and let it evolve as i proceed. i seem to come up with stories that i did not set out to write .. i find it an interesting approach that leaves me wondering did i really write the tune or did i pulled it from the air and it's up to me now to refine it.. may sound strange but it seems to work for me.. We are all limited by our personal musical ability,sensitivity and vocabulary when trying to express ourselves with words , music and emotion ...