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A Log of our fourth Guest Speakers in the Songwriting Lounge - February 8, 1999
with Pete & Pat Luboff, well known songwriting consultants and authors of "88 Songwriting Wrongs & How to Right Them : Concrete Ways to Improve Your Songwriting and Make Your Songs More Marketable" .

This chat was an exceptional one! There's tons of helpful information in this log and I hope you all enjoy reading it as much as we enjoyed participating in it. Pete & Pat's book is well worth picking up if you don't already have it. And we had a surprise guest at this particular gathering. See if you can spot who it was. ;-).


-- Log on luboff.log started at Mon Feb 08 17:44:01 PST 1999
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PatandPete Hi, Jodi, we're here. P&P
JodiMuse Hi there! Sorry about the idle.
JodiMuse Was just getting ready fro the chat. :-) How're you guys doing? Thanks for finding a place to do this from, by the way. We all really appreciate the effort you've gone to.
PatandPete Where are you?
JodiMuse Guys? Can you see my typing?
PatandPete Yes. Sorry, our messages crossed. I'm glad you appreciate our efforts. There sure were a lot of them!
JodiMuse We definitely do! Thank you! :-)
PatandPete Just curious about where in the world you are.
JodiMuse Ah. I'm in Toronto, Canada actually. Do you know where the other hosts are? I believe both Jeff & Ralph are in California and Danny & Sara are in Nashville. :-)
PatandPete No, I don't really know where they are, but Ralph is in California. He sent me an e-mail with his phone number.
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JodiMuse Yup. Hi there, Irene!
PatandPete Hi, Irene!
IreneJ Hey, there...sorry I'm early, lol!
IreneJ Hi PatandPete, nice to meet you
JodiMuse Why be sorry? Good to have you here. :-)
PatandPete Good to meet you, too. Where are you writing from?
IreneJ I'm just being silly :-)
IreneJ I'm from Victoria, BC in Canada
JodiMuse Irene's another Canadian, eh? ;-)
IreneJ Yep
PatandPete We're in Los Angeles. Near the ocean.
IreneJ Ahhh...nice! I'm hoping to get there next summer
PatandPete Do you have any questions for us?
JodiMuse I remember having this discussion with Ralph... I've been to LA ONCE. I remember how HUGE the palm trees were. That just blew me away. *chuckle*
PatandPete Ralph, aren't you in California?
IreneJ Actually, I didn't come really prepared with any...but I'm curious about your 88 reference? Does that mean you write on piano? lol
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JodiMuse This is all just sort of preliminary stuff until the others arrive. Ralph & Jeff and Danny & Sara aren't here yet.
JodiMuse Hi there, Steve. Welcome!
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PatandPete Good question! Originally, it was supposed to refer to the 88 keys. But our editor was pregnant and left before the printing and others at Writer's Digest didn't remember.
neonralph Good Evening everyone!
IreneJ Hi Ralph :-)
JodiMuse And there's Ralph! :-) That's pretty funny, Pete&Pat. So they left the reference but didn't know what it was for?
IreneJ lol...that's funny :-)
PatandPete Actually, we just did a revision on our book and asked that they put the keyboard on the cover. Too late. The covers were printed, but next time we'll have that done.
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JodiMuse Hi Eddie. Welcome. :-)
IreneJ Good idea :-)
eddie Type HEREhello all
JodiMuse So guys? Do we want to get this underway now? Or would you rather wait a bit longer?
PatandPete I'm already doing it!
eddie im ready
PatandPete Any questions?
eddie ?
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JodiMuse So you are, guys. :-) Go for it, Eddie. :)
PatandPete Edy's ready! What for?
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PatandPete Sorry, Eddy's ready!
eddie whats the most common mistakes new songwriters make
PatandPete Thank you, Eddie, for getting the ball rolling.
IreneJ Damn! That was my next question, lol
PatandPete We think the most common mistake new songwriters make is...
JodiMuse --laugh--
PatandPete Not really taking the time before writing anything at all to determine what exactly it is they want tocommunicate.
PatandPete Pete says it's a matter of focusing on the one subject of your song.
PatandPete That is to say --- the title!
eddie but cant songs be about nothing and sound good
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PatandPete Our image is the title is the hub of the wheel of the song and all the lines and melodies lead into that center as spokes in the wheel.
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IreneJ Hi Jeff :-)
JeffM Hi
PatandPete Yes, they can be about nothing and sound good, but even instrumentals are about something.
pat Hi Jeff
PatandPete They're focused emotionally.
JodiMuse Hi Jeff! :) Welcome Pat!
pat Heool Jodi, Pat and Pete
eddie good point
eddie ?
IreneJ Hi Pat :-)
PatandPete The trouble with songs that have lyrics about nothing is that they make listeners bored angry confused and uninterested.
PatandPete The whole point is to communicate strong feelings.
PatandPete And they aren't nothing.
PatandPete we're doing this job for the world, communicating what others have trouble expressing.
eddie true
PatandPete By we, I mean songwriters.
PatandPete Trouble is, we also have trouble expressing them!
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PatandPete How do I do the done, jodi?
eddie new?
PatandPete [done]?
JodiMuse Welcome, Sherrie. Glad you could join us. :) Pete&Pat - when you're done, just type in the word "done" and we'll all know that others can go ahead. Yup. You got it.
PatandPete Questions, anyone?
eddie ?
neonralph i think Eddie has another...
neonralph Go ahead Eddie.
pat Talk about cliches
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eddie how important are ryhmes
JodiMuse Pat, when you want to ask a question, please type in a "?" and we'll let you know when to go ahead, ok?
neonralph Anyone who has a question to ask, please type ? to get in the lineup.
IreneJ Hi danNsar :-)
JodiMuse Hi there, Dan&Sar?
PatandPete Cliches first, then rhymes, OK?
danNsar Hi all
PatandPete Talk about cliches. Cliches and twists on cliches make wonderful titles.
PatandPete Make a cliche meaningful and you have a hit song.
PatandPete In the recent revision of our book, we found a dozen cliches as examples in the current Grammy nominees. Can't think of one now, but an oldie but goodie is "I Don't Hvae the Heart."
PatandPete I mean "I Don't Have the Heart."
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PatandPete done on cliches unless you want more, now onto rhymes. How important are rhymes? Very~
PatandPete Very
PatandPete Very, Very!
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PatandPete They make the meaning memorable with sound. The trick is to use them naturally, conversationally, and not in a contrived way. We all know when you're "going for the rhyme" and losing your grip on the meaning.
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Sherrie ?
PatandPete We love inner rhymes, near rhmyes, perfect rhymes, alliteration!
PatandPete done
neonralph Go ahead Sherrie!
eddie thx
PatandPete I mean aliteration
PatandPete Sherrie?
Sherrie What are some of the songwriting no-no's?
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PatandPete We have 88 of them in our book, but we can think of thousands. We've done them all
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neonralph Do you have a specific area of songwriting no-nos, Sherrie?
PatandPete Paranoia is the first thought that came to both of us. You need an open, friendly, professional, vulnerable, helpful attitude.
PatandPete So many writers write songs without first really thinking out what they're writing about.
Sherrie Not really, I've done them all, too. :-)
PatandPete We usually start with a strong title and that does a huge lot for helping to focus from the start.
PatandPete We like prosody...the perfect marriage of melody and lyric. The emotion of the melody supports the lyric like the soundtrack in the movie supports the emotions of the scene.
pat Hello Pat and Pete from Pat Pattison
PatandPete Hey, Pat! Good to have you with us.
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PatandPete We could go on forever on that no no question, but we also could be done.
PatandPete Any questions?
JodiMuse Wow - you made it, Pat! *chuckle* That's great!
bsand100 ?
neonralph Go ahead bsand100!
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pat A small technological victory
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JodiMuse Well congratulations, Pat. We're glad to have you here.
bsand100 Thanks, do you have a set procedure to your writing, or just when the spirit moves?
pat yes from home
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PatandPete Yes, we do. The muse is always there, we just have to court her. We do this by talking up a storm about our song in progress.
PatandPete For instance, we could be writing a song about a couple. We always determine the singer and the singee.
PatandPete Who is singing and who is s/he singing to? Why are they bursting into song at this particular moment?
pat I'll just listen. Good stuff
PatandPete Where exactly are they? How long have they been in their relationship?
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PatandPete What is the absolute core, the heart of what is being communicated?
bsand100 ?
PatandPete We like the song to be right here, right now, face to face. We think that makes it the most intense.
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PatandPete We usually start with a strong title and flesh out the structure from there.
Sherrie Do you have a preference on writing from an emotional viewpoint as opposed to telling a story. So many country songs have a definite story structure to them. Just wondered what you prefered?
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PatandPete We love those contry story songs, Where Have You Been? or A Man Holding On To a Woman Letting Go fabulous stories and very emotional.
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PatandPete Both are great, direct emotional songs and emotional story songs.
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PatandPete done
PhilGnCo ?
neonralph bsand 100...did you have another question?
PatandPete Phil?
PhilGnCo Can you say a few words about writing in first person?
bsand100 Well, was thinking that it sounds kinda like a storyline built around the title
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PatandPete We think writing in the first person is the stongest viewpoint. The singer is feeling the feelings in the moment of singing the song. We love that immediacy.
PatandPete done
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PatandPete Do you want us to just go on about whatever?
BillyLee ?
JeffM If you have whatever still to go on about :-)
JodiMuse Well, looks like Billy has a question. :-)
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JeffM Go ahead Bily
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BillyLee sorry, got bumped before I heard about rhymes...what do you think about the rhyme "Can't", and "Paint"...the way i say it, it's a "perfect" rhyme
BillyLee I've been told it was BAAAAAD...
PatandPete Sounds good to us!
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PatandPete We believe in near rhymes, anyway. Some, don't. Can't and paint would only be near rhymes in certain parts of the country.
Lisa ?
JodiMuse Sorry guys - not in mine! :-)
BillyLee this happened before they had actually heard the song...then the individual still didn't like it...said "IT wasn't a rhyme"...
BillyLee thanks
Sherrie I'm glad to know you think using near rhymes is a good idea, perfect rhyme is so limiting and to me, often the listener alreadys knows where you're going
bsand100 Myne either
neonralph Go ahead Lisa!
Lisa Who do you guys most admire as songwriters?
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PatandPete If you pronounce can't like cain't, as in I'm Just a Girl Who Cain't Say No (Oklahoma) and it works, it works. Sometimes people just pick on things cause they cain't think of what else to say.
neonralph Ooops...sorry Pete and Pat...
PatandPete Pat is an old timer admirer, Sammy Fain, Cole Porter, the Gershwins, Roers and Hammerstein, Frank Loesser.
JodiMuse Cole Porter. *sigh*
JodiMuse Sorry. Showing my "torch song" roots. ;-)
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PatandPete Pete likes the contemporary songwriters, Billy Steinberg, Tom Kelly, Garth Brooks, Steve Seskin, Diane Warren.
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PatandPete Lots of country writers whose songs we love but whose names we don't have on the tips of our fingers.
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PatandPete done
Lisa Thanks - you probably like Rogers and Hart too then -
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neonralph Next question?
PatandPete Roger that, Lisa
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neonralph Stienberg and Kelly....yeah!
PhilGnCo ?
PatandPete Phil?
neonralph Go ahead Phil!
PhilGnCo What about song pattern? Verses, choruses, bridges...?
PatandPete God I forget the Beatles!
PatandPete We think song structure is extremely important.
PatandPete We usually choose the song structure very early on in the process of writing a song.
PatandPete Some titles seem to lend themselves to one structure or another.
PatandPete We call the basic structures: verse/chorus and verse/bridge.
PatandPete A verse/chorus example is: My Heart Will Go On
PatandPete A verse/bridge example is Here You Come Again
PatandPete Where the title goes in the structure is a key to defining which one it is.
PatandPete In the verse/bridge structure, the title is in the verses, all the verses and usually in the same place in all the verses - like the first like or the last line of the verse.
PatandPete like the first line I mean
PatandPete In the verse/chorus structure, the title is in the chorus, usually in the first line, sometimes in the last, and sometimes repeated throughout.
PatandPete done
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PhilGnCo Thank you...
neonralph ?
PatandPete We have a very good explanation of all this in our book.
PatandPete Ralph?
neonralph In the verse/bridge structure, is the verse sort of acting like a chorus?
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PatandPete No. because a chorus usually does not change. It is repeated verbatim. In the verse bridge structure, the verse changes every time, only the title line does not change: example, Don't It Make My Brown Eye s Blue
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PatandPete Another key element in structure is the emotional high point of the song.
neonralph I see.
PatandPete In the verse/chorus, the chorus is the emotinal high point. In the verse/bridge structure, the emotinal high point is in the bridge.
PatandPete emotional
PatandPete I have nice little graphs of this in our book, but I can't draw the pictures here.
neonralph So the bridge, in that situation, is not repeated verbatim?
PatandPete The bridge in the cleanest version of the structure, is only sung once. verse, verse, bridge, verse. If it is reapeated, it is an arrangement thing and it is repeated verbatim.
neonralph Got it! :-)
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PatandPete We love the musesmuse, Jeff Mallett's site and the craftofsongwriting site.
PatandPete They're all very informative and helpful.
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JodiMuse Thanks very much, Pete&Pat. :-)
PhilGnCo ?
PatandPete Our site does not have so many bells and whistles, but we're working on adding helpful info little by little.
neonralph Go ahead Phil!
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PhilGnCo 2 questions: I asume I can get your book at Amazon.com? What about songs like "Busy Man" where the "chorus" changes?
PatandPete Yes, you can get our book online from Amazon or writersdigest.com. You can also get it direct from us at www.writesongs.com and we'll autograph it for you.
PatandPete We're not sure about that song, can you hum a few bars?
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PatandPete It's a rare song that has a changing chorus, but we do know one in country now, "I Want To Know How Forever Feels."
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PatandPete And there are all kinds of permutations on those basic structures, but the structures are still there.
PhilGnCo Not really. It's new by Billie Dean. But the first cuorus talks about how dad is busy at work. The last chorus talks about how he's busy taking care of family
PatandPete For example, there are verse chorus songs where the title is at the end of the verse, as well as in the chorus.
PhilGnCo Yes! that one also.
PatandPete Probably heard it but can't recall it right now. We'll listen for it.
JeffM ?
BillyLee ?
PatandPete Jeff?
neonralph Go ahead Jeff!
JeffM Are you doing any more writing about songwriting? Any more books?
PatandPete Yes, we'r working on one right now about this way of writing songs we've developed in our workshops.
PatandPete We collaborate with everyone in the workshop at once. Sometimes it's nine people writing on one song.
PatandPete With that many people writing on one song, we all better be on the exact same page or we'll be like a nine-headed push-me pull-me.
JeffM Thanks. I look forward to seeing it when it comes out! How do you stay on the same page?
PatandPete So we developed this way of determining exactly what we're writing about before we start writing anything.
PatandPete This process works great when you're writing all by yourself with all your different voices in your head talking at once.
JeffM How did you know I hear voices? :-)
PatandPete We will probably self-publish this book. If you'd like to be notified when it's ready, e-mail us at pluboff@writesongs.com
PatandPete done
JeffM Thanks
PatandPete We all hear voices!
neonralph BillyLee? Go ahead!
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BillyLee hehehe...I get the next one...I forgot......(sheepish grin)
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PatandPete Jeff, about the same page question...
PatandPete We visualize the actual scene and the players in it and try to put ourselves in their characters and say what they would actually say in the situation.
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Lisa ?
JeffM I see
neonralph Billy...do you have a question?
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JeffM Go ahead Lisa :-)
JodiMuse Oops! I think Billy was waiting, Jeff...
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JodiMuse Not sure...?
JeffM I thought Billy forgot
BillyLee sorry Ralph...i forgot exactly the question I was gonna ask..pleasre go on
Lisa How and when do you find that your best song ideas come to you - under what circumstances?
JodiMuse Ah. Ok. :-)
neonralph OK. Lisa?
PatandPete Censored
neonralph :-)
PatandPete :-) (-:
JodiMuse --laugh--
Lisa lol
JeffM Uh, moving right along...
PatandPete We're getting some pretty good ones now.
PhilGnCo I think I got it! Too old to understand!
neonralph OK. Any questions?
PatandPete Seriously, though. Many of our best ideas are inspired by great titles.
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PatandPete The titles come at us from everywhere. Lines in movies, overheard conversations, things we say spontaneously.
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Lisa So you work hard on the title before you even begin work on the song?
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JodiMuse ?
PatandPete How about the line in the Tom Cruise movie where he says "You make me want to be a Better Man"
PatandPete Yes, Lisa. When we write in the workshops, we may come up with 200 titles to get one.
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Lisa wow - thanks.
neonralph Jodi?
PatandPete Sometimes we start without a title, but we do have a subject and we keep talking about it until we come up with a title.
JodiMuse So along the same lines, Pete&Pat, what song have you written to date that you're most proud of, and why?
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PatandPete It's a song called "World Without Walls"
JodiMuse Ooo. The title alone makes me shiver. ;-)
JeffM Nice aliteration
PatandPete It's a positive song about communicating and realizing we're all on this planet together, but voiced in a personal, absolutely non-preachy way.
JodiMuse So what (besides the title) makes it so special to you?
PatandPete It really gives us the feeling that peace in the world is possible.
neonralph ?
JeffM<-- throws Jodi a blanket
PatandPete Would you like to read some of the lyrics?
neonralph Yes!
PatandPete Blanket?
Brak Jodi was shivering...
JodiMuse --laugh-- I'm shivering.
PatandPete If we were blind we'd see no boundaries between us. Inner rhyme aliteration!)
PatandPete If we were deaf we'd hear no lies
JeffM Uh, moving right along...
PatandPete We live in a senseless world, we're trapped in our defenses. Don't know why.
JodiMuse --giggle-- Seriously though - I love the idea guys. What style is it in?
PatandPete big pop ballad
JodiMuse Ah... I'd love to hear the music some time. It really does sound wonderful.
JodiMuse Sorry... Think I'm interrupting Ralph?
neonralph Nope!
PatandPete e-mail us your address and we'll send you a copy for being so kind to us and setting us up on this chat.
JodiMuse I'm not the only one responsible, guys. ;-) But thanks! I think I'll take you up on that.
PatandPete Ralph?
JodiMuse If you ever need a demo singer, call me. *chuckle*
neonralph Speaking of non-preachy...what is the best way to approach a "message" song without coming off like you're on a soapbox?
PatandPete Good question, Ralph.
JodiMuse Oooo! Like that question, Ralph!
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PatandPete We hate preachy songs. Songs that sound like you oughta or you should.
PatandPete One good approach is to stay in the first person and don't come off like you have the answer.
pat Or 3rd Person
PatandPete A universal message can be exressed in a very personal way. Example: We're really Not So Different You and Me
JeffM yeah, avoid the 2nd
JodiMuse Can I ask - why is that? What is it about the 2nd person that ends up coming out preachy?
JeffM It's the "you" in you oughta or you should
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PatandPete If I'm telling you what to do, I'm separating myself from you and expressing that I know something you don't.
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JodiMuse --nod-- I see... Makes sense.
Brak That's pretty logical
neonralph Good points.
PhilGnCo ?
PatandPete Phil?
PhilGnCo So, lyrics like "Are we too blind to see?" would be acceptable?
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PatandPete It would depend on the context but by themselves they don't offend.
PhilGnCo Thanx...
JeffM<-- Waiting for Alanis' next hit: "We Oughta Know"
pat ?
neonralph LOL!
PatandPete But wasn't it great when Anthony Newley sang "What kind of fool am I?" And in Gigi's lover sings "Am I a fool without a mind or have I ...been too blind to realize?"
PatandPete If you keep it in the first person, people can relate.
JeffM ?
PatandPete Are we too blind to see? is the first person plural, so it's inclusive instead of separating.
neonralph OK. Pat?
neonralph Oops.
PatandPete Jeff
JeffM Isn't it Pat's?
JodiMuse I think so...
neonralph Yes...Pat's question.
pat How do songwriters find other good songwriters in LA?
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PatandPete There are a lot of songwriter activities in L.A.
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PatandPete The songwriter organizations, ASCAP, BMI, the California Copyright Conference, clubs, open mic nights, there are numerous opprtunities.
pat How would a graduating Berklee student just fresh there find them?
PatandPete Go to the organizations listed above and ask for their recommendations.
PatandPete The organizations know about the activities, such as open mic nights, and their own activities and meetings.
pat Thanks. I've got a few new good ones just out there.
neonralph"Lil' Hank's Guide" Has a good listing of LA open mics at www.halsguide.com
JeffM First, Li'l Hank's Guide For Songwriters might be a good place
JeffM Hey, that's what I said :-)
JeffM http://www.halsguide.com/
JodiMuse Actually, both Dan & Sara, & Jeff & myself have pages on our sites about locations and contact information for these and other groups. So you can check any of them for further info too. Li'l Hank's Guide is GREAT!
PatandPete Thanks, guys.
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PatandPete Songwriting workshops are good places to meet collaborators.
JodiMuse I think there's a resource section on UNISONG too!
PatandPete That way, you can get to know the person and their writing before approaching them.
neonralph Yes...the UNISONG resource is soon to be updated and expanded.
neonralph http://www.unisong.com/resource
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JodiMuse For information on upcoming conferences, I have listings both in my monthly newsletter and on the site at http://www.musesmuse.com/markets.html . That's pretty up to date and I'm getting new ones all the time. This is right about the time when a lot start advertising themselves.
PatandPete Taxi has a convention every year for its members. Over 1000 came from all over the country last time. It's free with membership.
neonralph Did you have a queston, Jeff?
JeffM yes
JeffM Regarding the previous thread about preachy songs....
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PatandPete Yes?
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JeffM Strictly from a commercial point of view, is it dangerous to write a 1st person song like that...
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PatandPete Like what?
JeffM like a "What a fool I am" type, because artists might not want to sing it
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PatandPete If it's done in a way that shows the person is having a realization then the song is transformed into a celebration of growth.
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JeffM Aw, I see! The positive aspect is the realization and transformation
PatandPete (~><~) this is us kissing while we wait
JeffM of the bad traits
PatandPete Yes
JeffM thanks
danAndsar ?
neonralph Go ahead Dan and Sara!
JeffM -M) (M- these are my hands over my eyes (you have to use your imagination)
PatandPete Good one
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danAndsar What's your greatest challenge being married, raising a family and trying to work creatively together?
PatandPete All of the above.
Brak That's an excellent question
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PatandPete Continuing to grow while juggling all of the aspects of our lives.
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danAndsar thanks. Just wondering if we're the only ones.
PatandPete It's the challenge we think everyone has to be who we really are and do what we really are here to do.
neonralph ?
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danAndsar yes. That makes sense.
JodiMuse Go for it, Ralph!
neonralph Hypothetical Question:
PatandPete Yes?
neonralph I'm a songwriter in a location far removed from a music center....
JeffM hypothetical is right
neonralph I want guidance, critiques, and hopefully, some connections.
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JodiMuse lol
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neonralph Am I better off going with an independent songwriting "consultant" or should I sign up with a service like TAXI?
pat I've got to check out. Thanks everyone for a helpful discussion! Bye.
neonralph See ya Pat!
pat Thanks for the help.
JodiMuse Bye Pat! Thanks for dropping by! :)
danAndsar Bye, Pat!
PatandPete You need both. Taxi is a valuable service and you do get good feedback, but its main purpose is pitching.
JeffM Bye Pat! Talk to you on email!
PatandPete If you want really individual help, you need to talk to us, or people like us - but we're unique!
neonralph What should I look for when considering a consultant?
PatandPete The songwriting organizations have some feedback services, NAS and NSAI, but I don't know how good they are.
PatandPete Ralph, another good question.
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JodiMuse I hear NSAI is pretty good. There's a chapter here in Toronto, actually.
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Lisa ?
PatandPete We think attitude is everything. A good consultant does not come on superior to you.
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Lisa I am not a performer, so I only write songs. Someone told me the best way to get them out there is through entertainment lawyers - how do I find a good one of these ?
PatandPete Just a second Lisa, let us finish Ralph's question
PatandPete A good consultant is there to supoprt your creativity at whatever level you're working at.
PatandPete support\
PatandPete A good consultant can answer all your questions readily.
PatandPete A good consultant shows insight into your particular needs, not just standard answers.
............................LC left ............. :(
PatandPete A good consultant can give you helpful insight into all levels of the songwriting process, writing, collaborating, demo making, pitching, etc.
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PatandPete Lisa, now to your question about music business attorneys.
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neonralph Thanks, Pat and Pete!
PatandPete Music business attorneys are not a way to get your songs out.
PatandPete They are used mainly by artists/bands to get to record labels.
PatandPete Music attorneys are very selective about who they will take on in this way. They have their own reputations to uphold.
PatandPete Any lawyer who charges you up front to pitch you is not worth dealing with. Let them get their money at the dealmaking end.
PatandPete Sorry, songwriters, you have to go to publishers, producers, or straight to the artists. Lawyers won't do it for you.
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PhilGnCo ?
Lisa Great information - thank you so much!
PatandPete Phil?
PhilGnCo Does your book explain creating demos and pitching? wha t about "Songwriters Market Place"? What about critique message boards?
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PhilGnCo Sorry all. I realize thats three questions. But short answers will do.
PatandPete Yes, our book covers the whole process of songwriting from first idea to bank deposit to the psychiatrist's or chirpractor's couch.
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PhilGnCo :)
PatandPete Songwriter's Market Place is a useful and economical tool. But there are other reference books, like the Recording Industry Sourcebook that we recommend
PatandPete Sorry to be such neophytes, but we haven't seen critique message boards. Where would we find one?
PhilGnCo Jodi.....Answer???
PatandPete I would be wary of taking advice from strangers, though.
JodiMuse Actually, Rob @ Lyricalline has a great one. www.lyricalline.com . You post your lyrics and others comment on them. Also, there are various message boards around. But I'll tell you - RMMS - rec.music.makers.songwriting is one of the BEST places to get critiques. The people there are fantastic.
neonralph I see a lot of this in the rec.music.makers.songwriting newsgroup.
JodiMuse I also have a message board off of The Muse's Muse. But it's not strictly for lyric critiques. Has a section for it though.
JodiMuse Irene is a regular at RMMS. She and the others are wonderful.
PatandPete Thanks, we'll check that out.
PhilGnCo Thanx Jodi! I'll visit RMMS also
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JodiMuse You really should! If you haven't been to the newsgroup, you're really missing something.
PatandPete We're getting into the last 10 minutes here. Last minute questions?
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Lisa ?
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PatandPete Lisa?
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Lisa What do you think is the best way for a songwriter (not performer) to make demos?
PatandPete Hire someone who sings like an angel to record your demo. Work with a MIDI studio guitar/keyboard player.
JeffM Ask Jodi to sing for you
PatandPete Be there and work directly with them for the learning process of it.
JodiMuse --laugh-- Thanks, Jeff. ;-)
neonralph Yeah...we recommend Jodi.
JodiMuse Lisa, if you're ever in the Toronto area, let me know. ;-)
Lisa Thanks.
Brak ?
JodiMuse I've done sessions for nothing at all but a credit - and will continue to do so until my name's out there. You gotta pay your dues, right? I love it so much I don't mind at all. :-)
PatandPete Brak?
Brak If you guys could project yourselves say 5 years into the future, what do you think you could look back on and be most proud of accomplishing?
JodiMuse Oooo! Interesting question.
JeffM this chat?
............................cathy left ............. :(
JodiMuse --giggle--
PhilGnCo Pat and Pete (and all who asked questions) Thanks SOOOO much for this informative session. I need to go also.
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JodiMuse Thanks for dropping by, Phil! Good to see you again. :-)
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PatandPete That we're still doing it for the love of it. It's one of the deepest, most satisfying things we do. We also love to pass along this conviction that songwriting
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PatandPete is a worthy, necessary, useful, crucial occupation.
neonralph That's something I need to hear more often!
PatandPete The world needs our songs, yours and ours. We do a service for the world by sweating blood over our songs.
Brak So you guys consider this more like a calling so to speak...keen!
JodiMuse :-) I think we all do!
PatandPete Yes, and we see it as a tool for never ending growth as people.
PatandPete We keep trying to get to the heart of the matter.
LC Type HERE?
PatandPete LC?
neonralph I'm writing this down...taping it to the bathroom mirror. Inspirational words, indeed. Thanks.
PatandPete Glad you like them!
Brak Indeed - something perfect for a newbie like me to go by, and hopefully not forget....
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JodiMuse Every time you forget, Brak, just read the log. --chuckle--
PatandPete It's a challenge to keep being positive in a world and abusiness that generally could do without you - or so they think!
LC Hi if you don't live in a music hub,how do you find a publisher?
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PatandPete The Recording Industry Sourcebook is a good source - about $90. Chip in with some friends
PatandPete Writer's Digest Songwriter's Market has lot's of listings for about $22.
PatandPete But you can get the publishing company names from the labels or Billboard Magazine charts , then look up their contact info on the ASCAP, BMI and SESAC databases.
............................danAndsar left ............. :(
JodiMuse Good idea, Pete & Pat. Never thought of that!
PatandPete It's been fun hanging with you. We'll be happy to do this again sometime in the future. Don't forget --- Write On!
PatandPete Say goodnight Gracie.
JeffM Thank you very much for speaking with us tonight
JodiMuse Thanks very much for coming by, guys. tt was great. :)
PatandPete You're very welcome.
JeffM goodnight Gracie
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neonralph Thank you very much Pat and Pete!
cathy thanks Pat and Pete
Lisa Thanks - great chat.
PatandPete Thank you all for being here with us.
danAndsar Thanks. we enjoyed it!
Brak Thank you all - look forward to future chats!
LC thank-you
............................PatandPete left ............. :(
............................cathy left ............. :(
neonralph Well folks, that was an exceptional evening, eh?
JeffM<-- peeks out from under the blanket and rubs his eyes
JodiMuse Well guys, so ends our chat. :-) Definitely exceptional!
neonralph Wow you two...!
JodiMuse lol
JeffM :-)
JodiMuse Maybe I should end the log? --giggle--
neonralph Have a great evening all...
JeffM Bye neon
JodiMuse Bye Ralph! Thanks for moderating! :-)
-- Log stopped at Mon Feb 08 20:02:33 PST 1999

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