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A Log of our second Guest Speaker in the Songwriting Lounge - October 26, 1998
Chat room Songwriting_Lounge with Harriet Schock

Once again, I've decided to leave the chat pretty much as is. Harriet was a delight as a guest speaker and we were all pleased and honoured to have her with us. Here's a lady who "shoots from the hip" and gives her advice honestly. The chat went very well with a minimum of moderation necessary despite the number of people that dropped by throughout the night. Things were pretty casual and that as just fine with us. Harriet also mentions her upcoming engagements in this log, as well as information about how one can go about purchasing her book and CD (both are wonderful and well worth picking up!)

Thank you to all those who participated.  We couldn't have done it without you. :-) Hope to see you all at a chat some Monday night soon!


-- Log on harriet.log started at Mon Oct 26 17:23:51 PST 1998
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JodiMuse Hi Harriet. :-)
Harriet Type HEREHi, Jodi
Harriet Oh, I see.
JodiMuse No problem. It's really pretty easy once you get the hang of it.
JodiMuse Just type and hit enter. *chuckle*
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Harriet Is it a Michelle I know?
JodiMuse Hi Michelle. Welcome. :-)
michelle yes . . it is
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JodiMuse Hey Ralph! :-)
neonralph Good evening all!
Harriet Good! V or F?
michelle F
Harriet Good!!!
michelle i wouldn't miss it honey
JodiMuse So how's everyone doing? I'm not moderating for now... I figure it's much less stuffy that way. *chuckle*
neonralph Doing good here...busy as usual!
Harriet Fine here. Just hoping I don't get kicked offline prematurely.
neonralph Welcome to the Songwriting Lounge, Harriet!
Harriet Had some server problems recently but I think it's solved
Harriet Thanks, Ralph.
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JodiMuse Glad to hear it, Harriet. Don't worry. We'll just pause if your server has problems. It happens sometimes. Hi Dgro!
neonralph Hey Dgro!
Dgro HI...20 minutes to class again
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neonralph Where is everyone logging in from?
neonralph Hello cjrat!
cjrat Type HEREhello
Dgro one of the labs at CSUH
neonralph Hayward?
Dgro yea
Dgro Michelle, we've never cybermet
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JodiMuse Hiya, Cjrat. :)
Dgro harriet we've never cyber met
Harriet I believe you're right.
JodiMuse I'm in Toronto Canada, Ralph - but you knew that. ;-)
Dgro I'm a lyricist
Harriet Ok. That's great.
neonralph Yup! :-) I'm in Riverside, California...and you knew that!
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Harriet I don't know where anyone is, so I'm happy to hear.
JeffM Hi!
Harriet Hi, Jeff!
neonralph Hello Jeff!
Dgro Hi, Jeff...JM and Jeff thanks for this chat
JodiMuse Let me know how long you want to wait before we start things off guys. Then I'll simply ask people to type a "?" if they want to ask a question and wait to be called on. Jeff? How about you moderate this time around? It gets confusing if more than one person does it. *chuckle* That ok with you, ralph?
JeffM I'm glad you could make it, Harriet
neonralph Sound good to me!
Harriet Thanks, Jeff. And I appreciate what you did on your site for me.
neonralph *Sounds*
JodiMuse What do you think, Jeff? And yes! THANK you for coming, Harriet! We're very pleased to have you here.
JeffM Okay with me
Harriet I'm delighted. We can start any time.
Dgro JM, proper intro
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Harriet Hi, Michelle!
JeffM I'm at work -- it's after hours, but there's always the possibility I'll get pulled away
Fox hi.
JodiMuse Hi Fox. Welcome!
neonralph Hello, Fox!
JeffM So if that happens, please take over :-)
JodiMuse If you get pulled away, just warn us and Ralph or myself will take over. No problem. :-)
JeffM Okay
JeffM Hi Fox
JodiMuse We're going to be moderating here when the chat starts. Just type a "?" if you want to ask a question and Jeff will let you know when to ask it, ok?
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JeffM Should we wait a few minutes, or would you rather start?
JeffM Hi Lukah
JeffM I think maybe just a couple more minutes
Dgro Hi Luhka
neonralph Hey Lukah!
Lukah Hi, everyone!
Harriet Hello, Llukah.
JodiMuse I think we should wait just a few minutes, Jeff. Just to see. Yup. :-) Hi Lukah! Good to see you. :-)
Lukah Thanks! :)
JodiMuse Harriet, Lukah & Dgro are two of our "regulars". *chuckle*
Lukah Yup!! ;-)
Harriet Good! Then they'll know better what to do than I will.
JodiMuse You're doing fine. :-) Nothing to it.
Harriet I just got back from Dallas where I was interviewed on a radio show, and it seemed strange to have to say it wihtout typing.
JodiMuse *laugh* How'd it go, do you think?
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JeffM Hi bugs!
neonralph Hey bugs!
JodiMuse Hi Bugs!
Harriet It went great.
JodiMuse Glad to hear it!
bugs Type HEREhey what up
JodiMuse You forgot the "doc". ;-)
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neonralph Hello mike!
JodiMuse Hi Mike. Welcome!
JeffM Hi mike
Harriet Hi, Mike.
bugs hi
bugs is everyone in the contest
JodiMuse What contest, bugs?
mike hello
bugs unisong
Lukah Not me ...
JodiMuse Ah... No. Ralph is involved in that. I actually entered a couple of songs. But that's as far as my involvement goes. ;-)
neonralph <--unisong :-)
Harriet I'm judging the John Lennon songwriting contest tomorrow. Is that ok to say or is it competition with a sponsor. ;)
bugs this is the unisong chat room isnt it
neonralph No problem at all, Harriet!
neonralph Will these be the finals?
Harriet I'm not sure what they need. I got a message when I was in Dallas that NAS needed me to help out judging.
JodiMuse It's co-sponsored by UNISONG, bugs. It's actually a co-venture between Jeff Mallett, myself at The Muse's Muse and Ralph here at UNISONG.
neonralph Bugs, Unisong is a co-sponsor of this room, together with the Muse's Muse and Jeff's Songwriter's site.
JodiMuse That's so cool, Harriet! Hope it goes really well.
JeffM Just say whatever you want, Harriet
Harriet That's a dangerous admonition.
JeffM but more fun!
neonralph Ah yes...I worked on the NAS panel last year with Dan Kimpel.
Harriet Right. How's that little girl who's such a good songwriter?
Harriet Good, Ralph. He's a good guy.
JodiMuse What do you say we start guys? There seem to be more than enough people here to ask questions. :-)
Harriet Okay.
JeffM That's okay with me too
bugs yo
JeffM Okay everybody....
neonralph OK!
JeffM Etiquette: Please type a "?" if you want to ask a question
JeffM Our special guest tonight is Harriet Schock: songwriter,
JeffM performer, songwriting teacher, and also a writer about
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JeffM songwriting. She currently teaches songwriting in L.A.
JeffM and her latest CD release is entitled "Rosebud". She
JeffM also has a new book out called "Becoming Remarkable"
JeffM Maybe we should start by soliciting a little auto-biography from you, Harriet?
Harriet I was born in Dallas. I moved to L.A. in the seventies. Do we start that far back?
Harriet I've recorded five albums as a solo artist.
JodiMuse *chuckle* Go for it!
JeffM Sure!
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bugs ?
Harriet I wrote a song which became a number one record for Helen Reddy. It was "Ain't No Way To Treat A Lady."
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JeffM (How about just typing a blank line when you're done, Harriet)
Harriet She heard my record on the radio and recorded it. I've written lots of songs for film and TV--The New Adventures Of Pippi Longstocking, the animated Secret Garden, Motown's The Last Dragon...
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songworld Type HERE Is Harriet Schock here?
Harriet Nik Venet produced my most recent two albums and I'm recently promoting the fifth one and my new book.
JeffM Yes, songworld, she's typing to us now -- Please type a "?" if you want to ask a question
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Harriet I teach songwriting all over the world over the internet, fax, phone and mail
Harriet The book is a series of articles I've been writing for the last six years. Jeff has them on his site.
Harriet I'm through now.
JeffM :-)
Fox ?
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JeffM Thanks. Your question, bugs
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bugs what do you use to write with, a guitar
Harriet No, I
Harriet I'm a keyboard player so i use piano.
Harriet I wish when I pack up the pianio for concerts I had taken up guitar.
Fox When will you be performing next?
bugs ok
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Harriet I have a concert November 7th in Los Angeles. And I'm going to Florida Nov. 21.
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neonralph ?
Fox where's the concert in los angeles?
Harriet If anyone in the L.A. area wants details, they can email me.
JeffM Address?
Fox what's your e-mail address?
Harriet It's in Hollywood at a beautiful room called the Garden Pavilion. My email addrss is hschock@relaypoint.net
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JeffM Go ahead, ralph
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JeffM hi Jared
Harriet I also have a new website I'd like people to see: harrietschock.com
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Qabalah Hi Everyone!
Harriet I Jared..
neonralph How would you describe your music on your latest release?
Harriet I meant, Hi.
Jared Hello Everyone
Jared Hello Harriet
Harriet My latest CD is a pop album in some ways, in that it has melody.
JeffM To our newly joined people: Our guest speaker tonight is Harret Shock. I'm moderating Please type a "?" if you want to ask her a question.
Harriet But lyrically, it has a film concept in almost every song. It is full of pictures and deals with subjects not often talked about in strictly pop music.
Harriet There are sound bytes on my website.
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JodiMuse It's a *beautiful* album guys. I can attest to that. Most definitely.
JeffM I think so too
Harriet Thank you, Jodi and Jeff.
Harriet Is anyone on here from L.A.?
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Qabalah Yup me, (George H)
JeffM Neon was, but he just got booted off his connection apparently
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neonralph I'm an hour east of LA...
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Harriet Ok, George and Ralph, emaiil me at hschock@relaypoint.net when this is over. I want to tell you about the Nov. 7 concert.
neonralph Will do!
Qabalah okay, will do
JodiMuse Can you tell us about it here, Harriet? People will read this in the log later and it might help!
JeffM hi jcrat: Our guest speaker tonight is Harret Shock. I'm moderating. Please type a "?" if you want to ask her a question.
Harriet I'm excited that I'll have the whole band with me this time. It's at 8pm Sat.,Nov. 7th
JeffM How many in your band?
Harriet at Celebrity Centre in Hollywood, at the corner of Franlin and Bronson. Marty Riifkin is also playing pedal steel but I didn't find out until
Harriet the invitations were printed. There's drums, bass, guitar, I play keyboard, viola/violin and pedal steel.
Harriet And three backup singers.
Qabalah The last time I saw you there it was really good
Harriet When was that?
Harriet Oh, in June?
Qabalah yah June
Harriet I played with the whole band at the Gallaxy in Orange County, but
Harriet at Celebrity Centre, they have a George Massenberg board. It's the best sound I've ever heard.
Harriet They also have a killer grand piano.
bugs ?
JeffM Go ahead bugs:
bugs do you play the east coast
Harriet I just got back a few months ago...
Harriet I played N.Y., Philly and Baltimore.
Harriet Do you know Lehman College in the Bronx?
bugs did you play nc
Harriet Do you mean North Carolina?
Harriet Or N.Y.City?
bugs yea
Harriet No, just the Bronx. It was amazing at this college. It was part of a Freshman program to bring me in.
Harriet Now that the book is coming out at the end of the month, I'll be traveling more.
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JeffM Next question anyone?
bugs try the walnut creek
Harriet I'll make a note of it.
neonralph ?
JeffM go neon
neonralph Who are your influences, lyrically and musically?
Harriet I think everyone has been influenced by Joni Mitchell, especially lyrically...
Harriet I play keyboard so everyone compares me to Carole King musically, although occasionally I'll get Elton John.
Harriet Actually my influences are probably the same as theirs. Lots of classical composers and lots of R&B and gospel
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JeffM How long have you been playing piano? Start as kid?
Qabalah ? classical composers, such as?
Harriet Lyrically, I think Don Henley and Joni Mitchell would be the ones I'd think of first, some Paul Simon and Bob Dylan.
Harriet I did start at 4 playing by ear.
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Harriet I studied piano but my ear always won out.
JeffM Music is for listening to ultimately
JeffM We had a question of which classical composers are your favorites?
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JeffM (or influences)
Harriet I love the melodic ones like Beethoven and Mozart and Tchykowski (sp()
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Harriet And I also love the discipline of Bach and the wildness of Stravinsky, the
Vic hello
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JeffM Hi Vic, Irene, clemstreet...Our guest speaker tonight is Harret Shock. I'm moderating. Please type a "?" if you want to ask her a question.
Qabalah hi Vic, Irene
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Harriet Mahler also gets me.
JeffM Next question from the audience...?
Qabalah ?
IreneJ Hi there everyone...
JeffM Qab: go ahead
JodiMuse Hi Irene! :-)
JodiMuse Hi there, Vic.
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Harriet I left Aaron Copeland out. Love him.
Qabalah Who are some of your favorite pop songwriters as far as meloy goes?
Lukah He's great!!
Qabalah oops - melody
Harriet I really like Eldra Debarge.
Harriet I like Kenny Loggins...
Vic hello everyone
Harriet I like Paul Simon
Harriet I like Paula Cole, especially her first CD.
Harriet I like melody that isn't embarrassed to be melody.
bugs ?
JeffM go ahead bugs
bugs what is the name of your new cd
Harriet rosebud
bugs ok ill get it
Harriet It's packaged into the back of the book. Thanks.
jcrat ?
JeffM And you'll be able to get the book from your website?
Harriet Yes. If someone wants the CD, I have a link to the record company's site.
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JeffM Go ahead jcrat
bugs its not in record stores
Vic can veryone here say hi to mike, he's a little shy
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bugs hi
Qabalah hi Mike!!!
Harriet It will be distributed nationally after the first of the year. Right now it's available from the record company site.
JodiMuse *chuckle* Hi Mike. If you want to ask a question, just type a "?" and we'll get to you. :-) Have fun!
Harriet Or at the back of the book where it's distributed.
bugs ok
JeffM jcrat?
jcrat why diives you to keep writing?
jcrat drives
Harriet I am not a writer who grinds it out every day.
Harriet If I don't have something to say, I don't write. Unless a film director calls me.
Harriet Then I get inspired. I have my ways.
Frank Harriet , can you tell us about the book?
Harriet It's a compliation of all the 48 articles I've written on songwriting that have been published
IreneJ ?
JeffM I've read the articles, they're great!
Harriet over the last six years. They were organized into chapters and the legendary Nik Venet wrote the foreword. I'm very fortunate to quote him all thirough the book.
Frank the cd and the book come together?
JodiMuse Definitely. Wonderful stuff. :-) I was actually moved to tears by a few of them. *chuckle* Then again, I cry in commercials. ;-)
JeffM Yes, Frank, or the CD also comes separately
JeffM And the book will be available how/when?
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Harriet Yes, the CD is packaged in the back of the book. The publisher thought it illustrated the principles in the book.
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JeffM Hi Lynn: Our guest speaker tonight is Harret Shock. I'm moderating. Please type a "?" if you want to ask her a question.
Harriet The book is available on my website: harrietschock.com It's also available
JeffM Go ahead Irene
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Harriet at Amazon. com and at the Blue Dolphin website. Soon it will be in lots of stores.
jcrat ?
IreneJ Thanks Jeff...I just have one question and then I unfortunately have to run...
Harriet Okay. Shoot.
IreneJ I'm wondering Harriet (please to meet you, by the way) what you do to get past the same old chord progessions when you're writing...
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Harriet I think it's good to get away from your instrument. Take a walk or just sit in front of a tape recorder without an instrument.
JodiMuse Good question, Irene!
Harriet Your voice will go places your instrument would not let you.
Harriet It's your hands that remember the patterns, not your imagination.
IreneJ That's very true...never thought of doing that!
JeffM jcrat...
Jared ?
IreneJ Thankyou Harriet :-)
jcrat define the elements of a remarkable song
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Harriet Melody that makes delivers the message...
Harriet Lyric that communicates directly and with emotional impact
JeffM Hi clemstreet, hi jose. Our guest speaker tonight is Harriet Shock. Please type a "?" if you want to ask her a question.
Harriet And a truth that will last longer than the charts.
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Lynn Type HEREAre we talking a particular style of music or a general song
jcrat ah....truth
Harriet No genre bias.
Harriet Yep. That thing.
JodiMuse I think Truth is a good thing for all genres, don't you?
jcrat it's the truth that touches people
Harriet I do. Some genres deal with it more than others, but I like it in all.
IreneJ A universal truth
Harriet JCRAT is quoting my mentor, Nik Venet, whom I quote in the book.
JodiMuse It could be a little truth. :-) Anything that touches the heart fo the listener...
Harriet A universal truth is just a truth that lots of people see as truth. But first it has to be true for you.
Harriet Jodi, we were writing the same thing at the same time.
JeffM aint that the truth
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JeffM go ahead jared...
Harriet In my book I clarify the difference between truth and fact.
Jared I'm new to this stuff, but I have a few songs on a demo..now I'm lost..any advice on how to go about getting them heard?
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IreneJ Sheesh...I wish I could hang around longer...best of luck with your book Harriet
Lynn I feel some people try too hard with the melody and therefore they loose singability. I think you need to have a melody that people will begin to hum right away
Harriet Thanks, Irene.
IreneJ Bye all!
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Harriet First Jared asked about how to get things heard. My answer to you is most people get their songs heard too early.
Harriet If you play them for anyone and they're really great, then word will spread.
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Lynn What do you mean?
Harriet Regarding Lynn's question on singability, I agree it should be singable.
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Harriet I mean that remarkable songwritng gets heard once it gets performed or played at all. There are many outlets for that.
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Jared but everyone says its not what you know, its who you know..but I don't know anyone in this business
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Harriet Most people spend all their time trying to get heard rather than trying to learn to write something worth hearing.
Harriet EVeryone doesn't say that.
Lynn Yes, but how do you get the right people to hear your songs. Where does a writer go?
Harriet There are contests, there are organizations, there are coaches, there are showcases. Where the heck do you live?
Jared well, thats true....its just that family and friends is all that have heard it
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Harriet Do you perform, Jared?
Lynn In Iowa and there isn't a lot here.
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Harriet Okay, but the National Academy of Songwriters is National. And I help people all over the world.
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Lynn This is great, I'm learning tonight.
Harriet Any publisher who accepts material will listen. But chances are you're mailing it too early.
Jared no, I've just wriiten and recorded...I don't know what to do now
Lynn You mean it need fine tuning?
Harriet Good, Lynn. I don't mean to be discouraging or insulting, but most people need fine tuning, as Lynn puts it.
Harriet It's catastrophic to mail too early. They remember you when you come back, all better.
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Harriet But they remember you as an amateur.
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Harriet There are also songwriter newsgroups where they critique each other, but most of these are the deaf leading the deaf, in my opinion.
JeffM next question...?
neonralph That's some strong advice...and excellent as well.
Harriet I'm from Texas. Sorry if I shoot from the hip.
JeffM ouch
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jcrat those are some sharp hips
JodiMuse *chuckle* It's good advice, Harriet. No need to apologize.
Harriet That's good. Thanks.
Lynn Harriet, it is great! I'm tired of people beating around the bush!
Harriet Okay. I'm glad.
mike ?
JeffM go ahead mike
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Lynn When someone purchases your song to use on their album, and you sign the contract, then is it out of your hands as far as what they do with it?
Harriet First of all, they don't purchase it.
Harriet They license it from the publisher.
Lynn Well, that is what I mean
Harriet Then unless they change it, it's up to them what they do.
Lynn okay
Harriet It is so out of your hands, you will be wringing them when you hear most of the records.
JeffM :-)
jose when you sign a deal with a publisher usually how long does the publisher own half the rights to your compositions?
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Qabalah hi RC
Harriet It depends on the deal. If they're paying you, they may get them forever. Sometimes the rights revert back. Often you keep half the publishing.
Harriet Remember, the publishing is only half the rights. You also have the writers' rights.
Harriet Unless the publisher is Saban. But that's not a usual pracice, nor an ethical one, in my opinion.
jose as far as what...creative control?
Harriet No as far as who gets the money.
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jcrat ?
Lynn what is the split?
Qabalah keeping half the publishing too would mostly apply to established writers... is that true?
jcrat what is the differencr between writers share and publishing share?
Harriet Without a contract, the publisher gets half and the writer gets half. When you sign away your publishing you still get the writers half. But some established
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JodiMuse Can I interject here for a moment?
JeffM sure :-)
Harriet writers get to keep half the publishing when they make a deal, or more, and then they get the writers half and part of the publishing, which was theirs until they signed it away for money.
Harriet Should I only answer questions when they've gone thorugh you, Jodi?
Harriet Or Jeff?
JodiMuse Just a very short plug. ;-) In the upcoming issue of The Muse's News (the newsletter off of The Muse's Muse), I'll be putting in a general call for questions of this sort - publishing, royalty and copyright questions. We'll be having a regular q&a with a publisher who has agreed to donate her time adn I'm very excited about it. So if you have such a question, please e-mail me at jodi@musesmuse.com
JeffM No, Harriet
JodiMuse No, Harriet. Jeff is moderating. I just interrupted for a moment. :-)
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Qabalah hay clem
JeffM It's a small crowd
JeffM Cool Jodi
JodiMuse That's all I wanted to say. :-) I thought it was pretty nifty. :-)
Qabalah hay ya'll... it's been fun but the muse is calling, so...
Harriet Jodi, your newsletter offers a very valuable service.
Qabalah see ya Nov 7
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JeffM bye, Qab, next question?
Harriet Good!
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Harriet This chat room has a swinging door.
Lynn Can you explain your book for us newcomers
Harriet Sure.
Harriet The book is my observations on songwriting that have been published monthly in songwriting newspapers
JodiMuse Oops! Send that to the wrong person. Sure does, Harriet. And thanks. I do the best I can with it.
jose Is there still a practive of tying in a recording contract for an artist with his publishing?
Lynn Okay, do you write too?
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Lynn Thanks for the information...I'll go and look for your book. Gotta run!
RC H all
JeffM Hi RC. Please type a "?" if you want to ask Harriet Schock a question and I'll call on you. That way we won't lots of questions all at once.
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Lynn Hi Frank
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JeffM Did you understand jose's question, Harriet?
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harriet I'm back. I lost connection.
JeffM Happens to the best of us!
harriet What questions did I miss?
JeffM jose?
Lynn ?do you write also?
harriet Do you mean write songs?
Lynn Yes, I'm sorry if I offended you. That is what I mean.
harriet That's how I've made a living for over 20 years.
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Lynn Wow!
harriet I guess I should have explained better in the beginning, but I've been a professioinal songwriter since the seventies.
harriet When I could spell "professional."
jose ?
JeffM go ahead jose
jose do you feel writers are getting a fairer shake today as oppposed to when you started?
Lynn Okay, so now...how did you get discovered and what words of wisdom can you send us to have our songs listened too. I know you said don't send them too soon. What else?
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harriet Lynn, I"m going to answer Jose first. Jose, I feel it's worse today, in a way. In some ways, but in others it's better.
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Lynn Jeff...I'll go through you...now I understand what you mean by "?" Sorry
JeffM Examples of better and worse?
JeffM thanks, Lynn
harriet I'll explain. Some greedy publishers are trying to take the writers half. Restaurant owners don't wnat to pay royalties ror using music in their places of business.
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harriet It's better in that you can bypass record companies and go directly to consumers, but you had better have the goods when you do that.
jose ?
harriet In other words, if you're going to get your songs diredctly to the public, without the industry hype, they'd better be good.
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JeffM you have a follow-up, jose? go ahead
harriet But now that there are more listening rooms, it's easier.
harriet In the seventes, the only place I could play original material were gay bars.
jose why is it then when I see an writer's credit he has like four different publishing companies listed under his/her name
harriet And believe me, they were not there to see the white girl from Texas at the piano. So I had to learn to be good enough to get their attention.
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harriet Jose, do you mean when only one person has written the song?
jose right
harriet I have no idea who all has been cut in in order to get the song recorded.
harriet Part of something is better.., as they say...
harriet Lynn, what was your question?
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JeffM I'm surprised nobody has really asked more specific craft (or art!) questions.
jose ?
JeffM go ahead jose
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jose Do you feel a writer should write all the time for the sake of writing or really use inspiration as motivation of his/her craft
harriet I think you should write in a journal every day.
harriet That doesn't mean you should write songs every day.
jose just write what's on your mind that day?
harriet Writing in a journal can be many things.
harriet It's not necessarily what's on your mind, although it can be.
harriet It can be what you observe, what truth you draw from it, or a realization.
jose so you can refer to it later for material?
harriet Have you ever read any modern poetry?
jose not really
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harriet You may refer to it later, but it hones your writing skills.
JodiMuse Hell, it would be good or you anyway. You really get in touch with your Self that way. And that's a great way to learn how to find the truth in your songs.
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harriet Modern poets like Charles Bukowsky, Alice Walker ...these poeple are reallyhimportant to read.
JeffM You write poetry, Harriet?
harriet I think the problem wiht most writers is that they just don't know what good writing is.
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harriet I do write poetry, I started that way. But it's just for me.
harriet I think songwriting is a form of emotional shorthand like poetry. But how can a person
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harriet expect to write songs when they haven't read any peotry since poetry rhymed and was all flowery?
harriet It's like saying you're a film maker but you only watch TV or something.
harriet You need to know this stuff.
harriet If you only study a hybrid form like songwriting, you aren't studying the roots of the writers you admire.
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jose excellent point
harriet The writers you admire have read poetry and listened to classical music, probalby.
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harriet Thanks, Jose. I'm down from my soapbox, now.
jose yes
JeffM Tired of typing yet, Harriet? Just let me know when you want to wrap the chat up. Okay? It's very generous of you to be here to help us write better.
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harriet I can tell when a student has been reading Charles Buckowski. You may not even like him, but he'll have an effect on
harriet his/her sense of irony, the edge to the lyric, the economy of words
harriet the emotional impact. It's amazing. I can explain till I'm blue in the face, but if they read that, they'll finally get it.
harriet But don't read it to your mother.
jose Thank you so very much for your valuable advice...goodnight everyone...thank you Jeff
harriet Whenever you think people are out of questions, we can call it a night.
harriet Thank you, Jeff and Jodi.
harriet Goodnight.
JeffM Okay. Questions...?
JodiMuse Bye Jose!
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mike ?
JeffM go ahead mike
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mike Which way should one approach a song melody first or lyrics
harriet I think it helps to know what you want to say. Then get a title.
angel Type HEREI am looking for someone who might know the song "Jump, Jive & Whales" It is an old one.
harriet In my course, I have nine different steps. They're confidential, but they go back and forth between lyric and melody.
harriet But it starts with a communication, not a riff.
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mike do you show them in your book
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JeffM angle: tonight we're having a scheduled chat with a special guest, Harriet Schock.
harriet My book does not have my confidential exercises in it. But there's plenty of other stuff I hear people say helps them.
JeffM (angel)
mike like what
harriet There are 48 chapters, all on different subjects.
harriet It deals with the language of songwriting, which is in fact a foreign language.
harriet If you want to go to my website, you can read some, along with quotes from people who have gotten a lot from the book.
JeffM That's http://www.harrietschock.com
harriet I have some very stellar people giving quotes. i'd rather you read what they say.
mike Do you think it ever is to late to master the craft of song writting
harriet Thanks, Jeff. Mike, I'm not holding out on you. It's never too late.
harriet Look at Grandma Moses' s paintings.
harriet It's too late when you've sent your CD to everyone in L.A. and Nashville.
mike your right
JeffM Okay, next "?" ?
mike What other readings do you recomend, beside yours
harriet I think you should be reading writers who write poetry, like I said, and novels. My chapter called "Do You Read" has lots of authors listed.
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harriet If you mean songwritng books, read Jodi's newsletter. She mentions some.
mike thank you
JohnnyA ?
JeffM go ahead JohnnyA
harriet My book is about becoming remarkable, not about becoming commercially successful, although they often happen simultaneously.
harriet You're welcome.
JohnnyA I often come up with melodies and lyrics, but being musically inept can't figure what to do with them, any suggestions
harriet I suppose you mean you get the molody but can't come up with the chords?
JohnnyA yeah
harriet Do you play an instrumetn?
JodiMuse Thanks, Harriet. As a matter of fact, I give away a book every issue to a subscriber. :-) The writers - like yourself! - have been very generous to me.
JohnnyA guitar
harriet I suggest you play by ear. A lot. Train your ear to hear more and more. Your chords will get hetter.
harriet Can you pick out a song by ear--I mean someone else's?
JohnnyA just the chords
harriet Can you pick out all the chords?
JohnnyA and not always exacrt
JohnnyA sometimes
harriet If you can't hear the chords in someone's song
harriet then those chords are not in your musical vocabulary any more than
harriet words you cdon't recognize in someone else's sentence.
JohnnyA good point
harriet Your own chords will sond arbitrray and weird. Train your ear.
harriet Or find a collaborator. That's no crime. Spread the happiness.
JohnnyA Thanks, great advice
harriet Thanks, Johnny.
JohnnyA I do like keeping to the Bob Dylan method of 3 chord progression
harriet But look what he does with them.
JohnnyA I'll work on it, thanks Harriet
harriet You're welcome.
JodiMuse Hey - if you have to emulate *someone*...
harriet Plus, Bob Dylan uses a lot more than 3 chords. That's a myth.
JohnnyA Yeah, I've always been impressed with the way he can string the same 3+ together
harriet He uses wonderful progressions, passing tones, bass lines, inversions. And he has so much to say.
harriet He's one of three writers I mention in the introduction of my book.
JohnnyA Where is your book available?
harriet For now, from my website. http://www.harrietschock.com
harriet Also amazon.com and Blue Dolphin's website.
JohnnyA Thanks again, hope to hear from you soon, good night
JeffM good night, JohnnyA
JodiMuse Bye Johnny!
harriet On Novemeber 10th at 7PM in L.A., I'm doing a book signing and talk at Book Soup.
harriet I forgot to mention that.
lukah 'Nite Johnny!
JodiMuse Cool! Wish I was in your area, Harriet. *sigh*
JeffM I guess you aren't pulling your piano along behind you
harriet Thanks. Me too.
harriet But you live in the same town as Dan Hill's from. There's a great writer.
harriet We were on 20th Century Records together.
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mike ?
JeffM go ahead mike
neonralph Wow...Dan Hill. Is he still writing/recording?
harriet I don't know. We were friends a while back, and then he had a number of hits after
harriet "sometimes when we touch," which he wrote at my house. Then I lost touch with him.
harriet I know he wrote a novel.
neonralph Great stuff.
harriet And a wonderful voice.
harriet Once he started playing the piano, his writing really took off, musically.
mike If I write aa lyric in Spanish, what is the best way to translate it.?
harriet Of course, Barry Mann wrote the melody to "Sometimes when we touch."
harriet What do you mean? Into English?
mike Yes
neonralph I did not know that.
harriet What's your native language?
mike Spanish
JodiMuse Sounds like you may need a co-writer, Mike - if that's something you want to do.
harriet Oh, good. Then just find an American lyricist and tell them what it says, or just let him or her write it in English without knowing.
mike Maybe
harriet "Ain't No Way To Treat A Lady" was translated into French.
mike Witout knowing what
harriet When it was translated back to me, the title had become "I want to love you like a woman."
harriet Without knowing what it's about in Spanish.
mike o.k
mike was the music different,translated
harriet The music was the same.
harriet The lyric was written by a famous French lyricist. It bacame a hit there too.
harriet So I was puzzled all the way to the bank.
JeffM C'est la vie
harriet You said it.
mike it must be hard trying to marry the song with the lyric
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harriet The song is the lyric and the melody. Many composers call the melody the song. Are you primarily a composer?
harriet Marrying the melody and the lyric will come easily eventually. It's extremely important.
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mike I am ew at this aI am neighter
harriet When you think of it, even if you write lyrics and melody at the same tme in the first verse, you have to write lyric to a melody in the second and third verses.
harriet Was that German?
mike Sorry trying to write to fast
Jared good point Harriet!
harriet What did you ask, Mike?
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mike I was just making a coment,
harriet Ok, we'll take your word for that.
JeffM He said "I am new to this altogether" (I speak German)
harriet Oh! Thanks!
harriet We're all still new to it in one way or another.
harriet Hopefully, we're still breaking new ground in a new artform, relatively speaking.
neonralph Well folks...I have to be on my way. Harriet, thank you for your time and insight on our craft.
harriet Thank you for your insightful questions. I enjoyed it.
JodiMuse Bye, Ralph! Thanks for being here! :-)
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JeffM See you, Ralph!
lukah Bye, Ralph! See you next time!
neonralph Goodbye to Jodi and Jeff and lukah and everyone else!
JeffM We should probably wrap up shortly on my account too ...gotta get home...
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mike ?
JodiMuse *nod* Yeah - and we've kept Harriet here cracking the whip for long enough, don't you think? ;-)
JeffM go ahead mike
harriet I'm ready to sing taps any old time.
harriet But go ahead, mIke.
JeffM Okay, mike's question and then good byes
mike How can you best use the power of repetition in a lyric
harriet That's pretty impossible to answer without seeing the song.
harriet You want to say something worth reapeating, first of all.
mike ok
harriet And a good way to do it is with a song that
harriet ends each verse with the title. Rather than a chorus song.
harriet That way, when that title comes in, it means something a little different each time.
harriet And it moves the listener more each time if it's done right.
harriet Did that help you?
mike Yes thank you thank you
lukah That's great, Harriet!
harriet An example of that is "The Song Remembers When."
mike You are the bst
JeffM I love songs where the title is in a different light in each repetition
harriet How nice of you. Well, goodnight everyone.
mike goodnight
lukah Me, too, Jeff.
JodiMuse Goodnight! Thank you for coming by, Harriet. It was wonderful. :-)
mike thanks again
JeffM Thank you very much for being here, Harriet!
lukah Bye, Harriet. Thank you SO much!!
harriet Jodi, as always where you and Jeff are concerned, it was a pleasure.
harriet Bye, Lukah.
JodiMuse *smile* I suspect both Jeff and I will have a log of this chat up very soon. You'll be able to relive the moment. ;)
Jared goodnight harriet!! Thanks for being here to help out
JeffM Yeah, but edit the part out where I typo'd her name wrong :-)
lukah Sounds good, Jodi!
harriet Ok. Thanks. I enjoyed it, Jared.
JodiMuse *giggle* Will do, Jeff. ;-)
harriet No kidding, do you correct the typos?
mike Harriet it is a pleasure to know that there are talented people like you out there, thank you
harriet Mike, I appreciate that.
JodiMuse I try when I catch them.
JeffM Actually I don't correct typos in a chat log
harriet Don't worry about it. That way, they'll know it was live.
mike It makes me whant to do better myself, you inspire many people
JodiMuse I find that I only do that if it keeps someone from understanding what's going on.
harriet Mike, I'm glad.
harriet Jodi, I totally agree with that. Thanks.
harriet Jeff, I need to tell you about someone I met who can hlep you. What's your email address?
harriet I mean help.
JodiMuse I'll probably end the log before this. ;-)
harriet Thanks!
JeffM I just switched servers in the last few weeks to get more features. So now you can email me at *anything*@lyricist.com
JodiMuse Cool, Jeff!
JeffM Example: SupremeRulerOfTheUniverse@lyricist.com
harriet That was the one I was thinking of!
JodiMuse *giggle* Oh yeah. I'm going to e-mail you at that address right away, Jeff. ;-)
JeffM I'm psychic too!
harriet Okay, guys. I'll be talking to you both.
harriet Bye.
JeffM take care
JodiMuse As a Supreme Ruler of the Univserse, you darned well better be. ;-) Take care, Harriet!
harriet Jodi, that's hilarious!
harriet Goodnight.
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JeffM thanx for coming lukah, Jared
JodiMuse I think I'll leave this last part in. I love that. Supreme Master of the Universe... *giggle* Would you mind, Jeff?
lukah Sure, Jeff. It's been great! She has great insight into this business ...
JeffM Oh, I knew you were going to leave it in before I typed it (of course)!
Jared thank you Jeff...I really enjoyed it
JodiMuse She's a very talented lady, Lukah. Definitely!
JodiMuse *laugh* <--tickles the Supreme Being.
JeffM <--- evaporates into the ether just in the nick of time!
lukah You two are at it again ... *Sigh*
lukah :-)
JeffM Nice seeing you all again. Bye!
lukah Bye, Jeff! Thanks!
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JodiMuse *wave!* Bye guys. Take care.
-- Log stopped at Mon Oct 26 20:16:57 PST 1998
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